Champ Car could learn from F1...

[jonovision_man]

Every year F1 races at Monaco and shows Champ Car how they should be clearing cars from a street circuit.

They keep the track green despite broken cars sitting on track, incidents that would immediately be full-course cautions in Champ Car. It has to be almost entirely blocked for F1 to pull out the safety car.

If F1 can do it, why not Champ Car?

jono

[KLang]

If F1 can do it, why not Champ Car?


Fear of lawsuits maybe?

[opinionated ow]

champcar could learn a thing or a million about street circuit presentation too.....

[Peter Olivola]

The usual answer: $


Every year F1 races at Monaco and shows Champ Car how they should be clearing cars from a street circuit.

They keep the track green despite broken cars sitting on track, incidents that would immediately be full-course cautions in Champ Car. It has to be almost entirely blocked for F1 to pull out the safety car.

If F1 can do it, why not Champ Car?

jono

[devilmaster]

The usual answer: $

on top of that, its also the 2 accidents that I remember of.

Mario hitting a parked car on lakeshore, and the corner workers at Vancouver who got hit by Willy T Ribbs and one of them died.

FCY's became the norm shortly thereafter, iirc.

[jonovision_man]

The Vancouver incident was crazy, though, they were running all over the place on a green track... I'm not advocating that! F1 uses cranes, not people (typically). And there will always be some situations that required the full-course caution.

jono

[devilmaster]

The Vancouver incident was crazy, though, they were running all over the place on a green track... I'm not advocating that! F1 uses cranes, not people (typically). And there will always be some situations that required the full-course caution.

jono

To counter though - when one of the spykers went out today, there were about 8 to 10 corner workers about 5 feet away from the racing line. One car loses it and its corner worker bowling.

[jonovision_man]

I don't recall the exact situation you're referencing, but I agree that F1 sometimes takes it to extremes.

Surely there's some middle ground between throwing a full-course caution for every little bump and throwing course workers to the lions. Cranes are certainly the biggest difference, F1 can lift a car from the other side of the barrier instead of requiring a caution period to remove a stranded car.

jono

[Insomniac]

Every year F1 races at Monaco and shows Champ Car how they should be clearing cars from a street circuit.

They keep the track green despite broken cars sitting on track, incidents that would immediately be full-course cautions in Champ Car. It has to be almost entirely blocked for F1 to pull out the safety car.

If F1 can do it, why not Champ Car?

jono

The cranes cost money and CC is not willing to put any risk on the safety crew when they are out on the track. I'd think it's because of past deaths, but I'd also think part of it is on the drivers as well. They can't be relied upon to obey the yellow flags to ensure the protection of the safety crew.

[spinner26]

professional racing vs. club racing?

[jonovision_man]

Mario hitting a parked car on lakeshore

Is this what you were thinking of? This is Detroit though...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwEqjuvAZzE&mode=related&search=

jono

[Jag_Warrior]

That's Champ Car's way of weeding out the weak fans from the truly devoted. After five or six laps of yellow, if you haven't fallen asleep or gotten up to leave the track, you are one of the strong, the brave, the committed. :tony:

Anyone remember the B.S. yellow from the first Vegas oval race about four years ago? Despite what some say, the NASCAR fans didn't rise and leave until that yellow went on for forever & a day. I would have left too, but I was too sleepy to get up from my seat. Champ Car needs to get its starts straightened out, and it needs to address the issue of yellow lap downtime.

These are fundamental things. Figuring it out is not rocket science. So either they get it figured out, or they shouldn't be surprised that people are not watching these Not Ready For Primetime presentations on TV. To say that it costs money to do it right doesn't fly with TV viewers. How does that new pop song go? If you ain't got no money, take your broke a$$ home!

[devilmaster]

Is this what you were thinking of? This is Detroit though...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwEqjuvAZzE&mode=related&search=

jono

Nope. IIRC (and honestly, maybe i don't) I recall a shot where there was a parked car on the inside wall of lakeshore blvd, and mario was following behind someone and was trying to cut inside of the car he was following to make the pass at the end of the straight. He cut out just as he got to the stalled car and tore the entire right side of the vehicle off his car.

Anyone remember this?

[dcracer]

Nope. IIRC (and honestly, maybe i don't) I recall a shot where there was a parked car on the inside wall of lakeshore blvd, and mario was following behind someone and was trying to cut inside of the car he was following to make the pass at the end of the straight. He cut out just as he got to the stalled car and tore the entire right side of the vehicle off his car.

Anyone remember this?

1989 Molson Indy Toronto. Approaching Turn 3 at the End of Lakeshore. Remember it quite well, just can't remember the car that was hit by Mario

[devilmaster]

1989 Molson Indy Toronto. Approaching Turn 3 at the End of Lakeshore. Remember it quite well, just can't remember the car that was hit by Mario

Whew! I'm not crazy.

no comments from the peanut gallery! :mad: ;)

[DagoFast]

He hit Danny Sullivans parked Patrick/Alfa Romeo. It had been there for a long, long time. That was the day I knew Mario was way past his prime.

[Indy]

That's Champ Car's way of weeding out the weak fans from the truly devoted. After five or six laps of yellow, if you haven't fallen asleep or gotten up to leave the track, you are one of the strong, the brave, the committed. :tony:

Anyone remember the B.S. yellow from the first Vegas oval race about four years ago? Despite what some say, the NASCAR fans didn't rise and leave until that yellow went on for forever & a day. I would have left too, but I was too sleepy to get up from my seat. Champ Car needs to get its starts straightened out, and it needs to address the issue of yellow lap downtime.

These are fundamental things. Figuring it out is not rocket science. So either they get it figured out, or they shouldn't be surprised that people are not watching these Not Ready For Primetime presentations on TV. To say that it costs money to do it right doesn't fly with TV viewers. How does that new pop song go? If you ain't got no money, take your broke a$$ home!

^^^What he said. Put up or shut up. Fund it, merge it, or shut it down and let someone with guts and dollars do it.

[cart7]

^^^What he said. Put up or shut up. Fund it, merge it, or shut it down and let someone with guts and dollars do it.

:thumbup:

[opinionated ow]

The usual answer: $

really, how much would it cost to hire a couple of small cranes? it should be a part of the street circuit contracts that the promoters organise for two or three cranes to be at critical locations. macau is the perfect example.

[Ankf00]

CCWS can't come close to affording the insurance policy to allow workers near the racing line, according to racermike years ago when the series actually had a decent field and decent funding

[Peter Olivola]

The cranes aren't the only cost. As was mentioned, the insurance aspect, in the U.S. at least, is not just a cost factor. The risk management aspect is expressed in dollars. Do X and it will cost Y. Don't do X and it will cost Y-n. Where Y is some significant amount designed to discourage engaging in X.


really, how much would it cost to hire a couple of small cranes? it should be a part of the street circuit contracts that the promoters organise for two or three cranes to be at critical locations. macau is the perfect example.

[opinionated ow]

CCWS can't come close to affording the insurance policy to allow workers near the racing line, according to racermike years ago when the series actually had a decent field and decent funding


The cranes aren't the only cost. As was mentioned, the insurance aspect, in the U.S. at least, is not just a cost factor. The risk management aspect is expressed in dollars. Do X and it will cost Y. Don't do X and it will cost Y-n. Where Y is some significant amount designed to discourage engaging in X.

that situation is very much fubar then....

[Boatdesigner]

The FCY could be a lot shorter if they would close the pits. Clean the track and get back to racing ASAP. Green flag only pitstops would also reduce the number of "lucky dog" wins. Pit strategy would play a much bigger role in planning your race.

[Wheel-Nut]

that situation is very much fubar then....

Cost of liability insurance in the U.S. isn't the fault of race promoters or series owners. The fault lies between the insurers and the lawyers.

[Insomniac]

Cost of liability insurance in the U.S. isn't the fault of race promoters or series owners. The fault lies between the insurers and the lawyers.

The risk models generally dictate the costs.

[miatanut]

I was whining about the FCY's to a corner worker at Portland testing. My position is that it should be yellow two corners before and one corner after the incident. Rest of the track green. Bust anybody who goes racing through the yellow zone. Maybe make them run on the pit lane rev limiter through the yellow zone, which is better than the current situation where you still have backmarkers going all-out playing catch-up.

His response was they can get it cleaned up faster when they don't have the cars coming around every minute. I still don't like the FCY's but that comment does give me some new perspective on it.

[Insomniac]

I was whining about the FCY's to a corner worker at Portland testing. My position is that it should be yellow two corners before and one corner after the incident. Rest of the track green. Bust anybody who goes racing through the yellow zone. Maybe make them run on the pit lane rev limiter through the yellow zone, which is better than the current situation where you still have backmarkers going all-out playing catch-up.

His response was they can get it cleaned up faster when they don't have the cars coming around every minute. I still don't like the FCY's but that comment does give me some new perspective on it.

If they seriously wanted to do it like F1, they would have to nail every person who puts any safety worker at the remotest risk (i.e. not slowing significantly and driving safely through the yellow flagged area) with a black flag and end their race. There should be zero tolerance.

[Racing Truth]

^^^What he said. Put up or shut up. Fund it, merge it, or shut it down and let someone with guts and dollars do it.

One way or the other, be serious about the whole operation. If that means realizing you don't have it in you to seriously rebuild this thing, then so be it.

[oddlycalm]

IMO CCWS has done better than other US series in addressing this over the last few seasons and the starters on the DP01 were going to take that a step farther. Not exactly their fault Panoz didn't make it work.

At this point renting half a dozen hydro cranes for a three day weekend is outside the cost envelope of CCWS and it's promoters, but that wasn't true back in the early 90's and I used to rip on CART for all the FCY's at road and street courses.

oc

[dando]

At this point renting half a dozen hydro cranes for a three day weekend is outside the cost envelope of CCWS and it's promoters, but that wasn't true back in the early 90's and I used to rip on CART for all the FCY's at road and street courses.

oc

Yup. Too bad they didn't invest some of that IPO $$$ or even Pookfare into cranes. :( :shakehead

-Kevin

[nrc]

IMO CCWS has done better than other US series in addressing this over the last few seasons and the starters on the DP01 were going to take that a step farther. Not exactly their fault Panoz didn't make it work.
Is it Panoz or Cosworth?


At this point renting half a dozen hydro cranes for a three day weekend is outside the cost envelope of CCWS and it's promoters, but that wasn't true back in the early 90's and I used to rip on CART for all the FCY's at road and street courses.

Let's say they do spend a big sum of money to rent a bunch of cranes. How is the car going to get securely connected to the end of this wonderous cure for all ills? You still have to put workers on course and that's the real problem.

No, if they want to reduce full course cautions cost effectively they should just go back to putting the safety trucks on course. For each incident send one truck to deal with it and one to block traffic from the danger area. Put one of those flashing direction indicators on it to signal the driver which side to stay on.

[Ankf00]

Let's say they do spend a big sum of money to rent a bunch of cranes. How is the car going to get securely connected to the end of this wonderous cure for all ills? You still have to put workers on course and that's the real problem.


I don't think a couple of corner workers quickly hooking up a strap to the rollbar would be as intensive in time or manpower.

meanwhile the rest of those guys can clear the area instead of pushing the car to the nearest parking spot

[SurfaceUnits]

They need some Bobcats :gomer:


http://www.bobcat.com/versahandler/choosing/overview

[oddlycalm]

Is it Panoz or Cosworth? Either? Both? Whatever, there were supposed to be working starters on the DP01 and there aren't. FCY's for stalled cars shouldn't be happening.


You still have to put workers on course and that's the real problem. Yes, they would still require a FCY in many situations to put workers on course to hook up the car but the difference is the amount of time it takes to get the car behind the wall.

If it can be done with trucks, fine. Whatever the method, numerous and extended FCY's need to be addressed. CCWS management have made it clear they understand this and it was considered when they speced out the new car, yet here we are.

oc

[tantra]

We don't need no stupid FCY. Drivers understand when to slow and control their machines.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRXymgWiRcY&mode=related&search=

[Insomniac]

We don't need no stupid FCY. Drivers understand when to slow and control their machines.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRXymgWiRcY&mode=related&search=

I almost now hate seeing old video of CC/CART. It kind of hurts to see how good things were compared to now.

[Sean O'Gorman]

I almost now hate seeing old video of CC/CART. It kind of hurts to see how good things were compared to now.

Oh how you'd hate to see the old Cleveland races that we're getting in Ohio...

[Insomniac]

Oh how you'd hate to see the old Cleveland races that we're getting in Ohio...

Must be pretty sweet. Maybe they need to bring back those cars with some safety improvements. :)