This Review makes me want to see "300"

[coolhand]

http://www.slate.com/id/2161450/fr/rss/


If 300, the new battle epic based on the graphic novel by Frank Miller and Lynn Varley, had been made in Germany in the mid-1930s, it would be studied today alongside The Eternal Jew as a textbook example of how race-baiting fantasy and nationalist myth can serve as an incitement to total war. Since it's a product of the post-ideological, post-Xbox 21st century, 300 will instead be talked about as a technical achievement, the next blip on the increasingly blurry line between movies and video games.

Here are just a few of the categories that are not-so-vaguely conflated with the "bad" (i.e., Persian) side in the movie: black people. Brown people. Disfigured people. Gay men (not gay in the buff, homoerotic Spartan fashion, but in the effeminate Persian style). Lesbians. Disfigured lesbians. Ten-foot-tall giants with filed teeth and lobster claws. Elephants and rhinos (filthy creatures both). The Persian commander, the god-king Xerxes (Rodrigo Santoro) is a towering, bald club fag with facial piercings, kohl-rimmed eyes, and a disturbing predilection for making people kneel before him.

Another of the Spartans' less-than-glorious customs is the practice of eugenics, hurling any less-than-perfect infant off a cliff onto a huge pile of baby skeletons. Unfortunately for the 300 at Thermopylae, this system of racial cleansing isn't foolproof: One deformed hunchback, Ephialtes (Andrew Tiernan), manages to make it to adulthood and begs Leonidas for a chance to serve Sparta in the 300. Sure enough, when he's turned down, the hunchback confirms his moral weakness by accepting Xerxes' offer to join ranks with the Persians.

In a classic example of the epic understatement known as litotes, Variety's reviewer observes that the picture's vision of the West as a heroic contingent of sculpted badasses and the East as a cauldron perversion and iniquity "might be greeted with muted enthusiasm in the Middle East." Replace the words "muted enthusiasm" with "a roadside bomb," and you've got yourself a tagline for the Baghdad premiere.

If it irks here sensibilities so much I have to support it. What happened to "...Its just a movie"?

[Ankf00]

you are SO core

[rabbit]

I've been excited about "300" since I saw the trailer for the first time a couple months ago. :thumbup:

[Opposite Lock]

you are SO core


:laugh:

ps: please don't say "irk". ,,,,,,,,,,

[coolhand]

I've been excited about "300" since I saw the trailer for the first time a couple months ago. :thumbup:

...And it is offensive to this dyke.

[nrc]

So it's not ok to tell a centuries old legend because it may offend the sensibilities of Middle Easterners, but it's ok to imply that that their response might be terrorist bombings. :\

[Ankf00]

So it's not ok to tell a centuries old legend because it may offend the sensibilities of Middle Easterners, but it's ok to imply that that their response might be terrorist bombings. :\

not legend but history. one the one hand it sucks they're using a comic book to tell the tale (I'd prefer the Gladiator treatment, personally, but that's just me), on the other hand Frank Miller's 300 is pretty badass and incorporates mechanisms used in greek theater and art such as nearly naked warriors (highlights masculinity) and extravagant costumes (think drama masks).

coolio, dont tire your hand out patting yourself on the back for sticking it to this dyke, since you will be viewing with glee a celebration of a heroic last stand by a child molesting homosexuality practicing communist style culture with no freedom or sense of "self." NAMBLA rocks, yea, go Stalin, woo!! :gomer:

[nrc]

not legend but history.There's the history, and then there's the embellished history which is the legend.

[coolhand]

coolio, dont tire your hand out patting yourself on the back for sticking it to this dyke, since you will be viewing with glee a celebration of a heroic last stand by a child molesting homosexuality practicing communist style culture with no freedom or sense of "self." NAMBLA rocks, yea, go Stalin, woo!! :gomer:

That is not the point gomer, I am sure she talks endlessly about how "courageous and inspiring" the other million films that highlight that behavior you described. Yet this one does not cow tow the line she subscribes too and she melts down. That is reason enough to see it.

The only city state that allowed gays was Corinth, it was death in any other part of Greece for the time.

People today try to claim that Homer's Iliad has gay passages, of course they don't read Greek, they read the translations written to make it seem like Achilles is gay, whereas Homer actually makes it clear Achilles and Patrocles love each other as BROTHERS not lovers.

Also I don't care to defend the Spartan system and culture, that is not what the story is all about. They defended Greece (which includes Athens) with other Greek representatives saving the foundations of wester civilization in general.

[Ankf00]

The only city state that allowed gays was Corinth, it was death in any other part of Greece for the time

:laugh:

I missed the part where they offed Plato and Herodotus for writing of homosexual practices, or the subjects themselves. And if you were open it was perfectly acceptable in Athens, you just couldn't exercise all your rights. NAMBLA's pederasty philosophies were well and alive in most every Hellenic city-state at the time.

The story "300" isn't about the history of western civ or the 700 or so Thespians that fought as well, it's about Sparta's gloriousness and machismo holding off the evil hordes of Xerxes. It's a comic book, it kicks ass.

But keep keeping it real, dude. Never let the woman hold you down. :tony:

[coolhand]

:laugh:

I missed the part where they offed Plato and Herodotus for writing of homosexual practices, or the subjects themselves. And if you were open it was perfectly acceptable in Athens, you just couldn't exercise all your rights. NAMBLA's pederasty philosophies were well and alive in most every Hellenic city-state at the time.

The story "300" isn't about the history of western civ or the 700 or so Thespians that fought as well, it's about Sparta's gloriousness and machismo holding off the evil hordes of Xerxes. It's a comic book, it kicks ass.

But keep keeping it real, dude. Never let the woman hold you down. :tony:

I will get back to this later, it is all about the translations and whether you have an agenda.

I had a homosexual professor lecturing on why he thought Abraham Lincoln was gay.

[Ankf00]

Didn't realize you needed an agenda to place 1st time and again at JCL conventions. Learn something every day...

[coolhand]

Didn't realize you needed an agenda to place 1st time and again at JCL conventions. Learn something every day...

Well yes if you want to translate Plutarch's passages ass "they loved boys" or they "had love WITH boys". Big difference. Certain people want to make a conceited effort to prove every significant person is gay or something.

Love also has many different meanings and to anachronistic about these passages is the incorrect approach.

[oddlycalm]

What happened to "...Its just a movie"? What happened to "It's just a movie review?"

oc

[Ankf00]

Well yes if you want to translate Plutarch's passages ass "they loved boys" or they "had love WITH boys". Big difference. Certain people want to make a conceited effort to prove every significant person is gay or something.

Love also has many different meanings and to anachronistic about these passages is the incorrect approach.

So I pulled in all those blue ribbons at JCL because my instructors in a decade of classical latin & greece were really teaching me every significant person is gay, instead of just sharing their love of the language, literature, and history with their students. Never looked at it that way before, thanks!

[Ankf00]

There's the history, and then there's the embellished history which is the legend.

the legend isn't mutant evil hordes from the netherworld though... either way, it's a great moment in history, and a great tale. But there's a rather large jump from the classical legend/history and Frank Miller's work.

[oddlycalm]

there's a rather large jump from the classical legend/history and Frank Miller's work. You get this week's understatement award....:D

oc

[datachicane]

But there's a rather large jump from the classical legend/history and Frank Miller's work.

No *****.
Expecting an accurate portayal of the Greeks from this crap is no different than parsing Asterix for insights into the Romans. :rolleyes:

http://www.roman-empire.net/graphics/asterix1.jpg


Oh, yeah, and claiming that scholarship suggesting Greek tolerance of homosexuality is all part of some nefarious queer plot is wingnuttery of the highest order.

[coolhand]

Oh, yeah, and claiming that scholarship suggesting Greek tolerance of homosexuality is all part of some nefarious queer plot is wingnuttery of the highest order.

Way to misrepresent it. It was different for different cities, only Corinth had a sanction practice in the sacred band.

otherwise

Lycurgus decreed that if someone, being himself an honest man, admired a boy's soul and tried to make of him an ideal friend without reproach and to associate with him, he approved, and believed in the excellence of this kind of training. But if it was clear that the attraction lay in the boy's outward beauty, he banned the connection as an abomination; and thus he mandated that "boy lovers should keep their hands off boys just as parents do not lay hands on their own children." This system, implies Xenophon, produces the most modest, trustworthy and self-controlled men in all of Greece.



Plutarch also describes the relationships as chaste, and states that it was as unthinkable for a lover to sexually consummate a relationship with his beloved as for a father to do so with his own son.

Anything indicating otherwise is usually proposed after the words "some scholars assume..." i.e. "want to believe..." Sexual relations between adult men were condemned and ridiculed.

However it is wingnuttery to constantly scan through history changing long established knowledge so you can feel better about your sexuality or be championed by a certain group. Like I said, name any major historic figure, especially in antiquity, and you will find someone claiming he was a homosexual. From Achillies on down the Ceaser.

[oddlycalm]

Went to an early show and caught the 300 sans the big crowds. If you like plenty of stylized female nudity (Lena Headey) along with your stylized violence (everywhere) this is for you. The artwork isn't as true to Frank Miller's work as Bobby Rodriguez' "Sin City" was, but certainly true to Miller's style. Did I mention Lena Headey looks great with or without clothes and can actually act...?

The sound track is the usual bombastic every trick in the box ice cold digital surround blast fest that seems to automatically come with every film released in the last 5yrs except for art house flicks and romantic comedies. For an over the top stylized film like this the approach is actually appropriate....for once. [/blog] :thumbup:

oc

[rabbit]

http://www.thestar.com/article/190493

[datachicane]

http://www.thestar.com/article/190493

Good read- pretty well sums up my sentiments.

[oddlycalm]

http://www.thestar.com/article/190493

For adolescents ready to graduate from the graphic novel to Ayn Rand, or vice-versa :D

oc

[datachicane]

Caught that.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Ayn Rand comic books:
It's the inevitable progression of things.

[coolhand]

Went to an early show and caught the 300 sans the big crowds. If you like plenty of stylized female nudity (Lena Headey) along with your stylized violence (everywhere) this is for you. The artwork isn't as true to Frank Miller's work as Bobby Rodriguez' "Sin City" was, but certainly true to Miller's style. Did I mention Lena Headey looks great with or without clothes and can actually act...?

The sound track is the usual bombastic every trick in the box ice cold digital surround blast fest that seems to automatically come with every film released in the last 5yrs except for art house flicks and romantic comedies. For an over the top stylized film like this the approach is actually appropriate....for once. [/blog] :thumbup:

oc

Glad you enjoyed it, I plan on going at the end of the week. I have only heard good things

[coolhand]

http://www.thestar.com/article/190493

In a less emotional way that piece echo's the original review I posted. Someone upset about the perceived politics of the film who then tries to skewer its historical accuracy. Something which the film makers never claimed it to be aside from the fact that Greeks fought off the Persians and maintaining Greek society and the future of western civilization. They did fight for freedom, freedom from Persian domination.

[rabbit]

History Channel's "Last Stand of the 300" (includes commentary by Steven Pressfield, author of "Gates of Fire")

Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBSxJipq6R4)
Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SusOTvoBJzE)
Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLWxToGuotg)
Part 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0LjIJyJi9g)
Part 5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTZmVA9AS0s)
Part 6 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykW7DDcrnhc)
Part 7 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeu7BKgapWM)
Part 8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiKL9JGgVUw)
Part 9 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTUTbxqQ7Pw)
Part 10 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFZ0wma8FwQ)
Part 11 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJZmfBBbbZI)
Part 12 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj2kt8uaSnk)
(roughly 90 min. total)

[coolhand]

Gates of Fire is a good book. I read that Miller played his story on what he read in that.

Victor David Hansen a Historian has his view on the History of it
http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson101106.html

So almost immediately, contemporary Greeks saw Thermopylae as a critical moral and culture lesson. In universal terms, a small, free people had willingly outfought huge numbers of imperial subjects who advanced under the lash. More specifically, the Western idea that soldiers themselves decide where, how, and against whom they will fight was contrasted against the Eastern notion of despotism and monarchy — freedom proving the stronger idea as the more courageous fighting of the Greeks at Thermopylae, and their later victories at Salamis and Plataea attested.

[Ankf00]

yes, Hellenic Sparta was a veritable bastion of freedoms :laugh:

[coolhand]

yes, Hellenic Sparta was a veritable bastion of freedoms :laugh:

Free from Persia. Other city states benefited too. I could not have said it any more clearer. Hell I did not even come up with it. Many historians speak of the event that way.

[Andrew Longman]

I just have to ask...

How many racing forums have informed debate on ancient Greek history?

I'm impressed.

Carry on.

[coolhand]

I just have to ask...

How many racing forums have informed debate on ancient Greek history?

I'm impressed.

Carry on.

How many have a 50 page thread on Commercial Airliners?;)

[datachicane]

Someone upset about the perceived politics of the film who then tries to skewer its historical accuracy. Something which the film makers never claimed it to be aside from the fact that Greeks fought off the Persians and maintaining Greek society and the future of western civilization. They did fight for freedom, freedom from Persian domination.

This is a pretty convoluted bit of doublethink.
Let me get this straight:

1. Some critics are upset about the politics of the film.

2. Those critics complain about the historical inaccuracy of the film.

3. The filmmakers never intended the film to be historically accurate, so those criticisms are unfounded. Except for the parts where the Spartan freedom-fighters assure the future of western civilization- that's all good.

So critics of the film can't complain about historical inaccuracy, because the film isn't supposed to be historically accurate, but proponents of the film can point to the historical accuracy of the film to justify whatever points they'd like to make. It's DoublePlusGood!
:rolleyes:

This film says much, much more about our current culture and values than it does the Greeks. There's a long tradition of that sort of work, and there's nothing wrong with it, except when it's irredeemably silly: Spartans upheld as paragons and progenitors of the values of western civilization, unlike those effete Athenians. :rofl:

Here we see an enraged pantomime Princess Margaret, she is lying in wait for her breakfast. The unsuspecting breakfast tray glides ever closer to its doom. The enraged pantomime royal person is poised for the kill. She raises her harpoon and fires. Pang! Right in the toast. A brief struggle and all is over. Poor breakfast!

[coolhand]

1. Some critics are upset about the politics of the film.

2. Those critics complain about the historical inaccuracy of the film.

3. The filmmakers never intended the film to be historically accurate, so those criticisms are unfounded. Except for the parts where the Spartan freedom-fighters assure the future of western civilization- that's all good.

So critics of the film can't complain about historical inaccuracy, because the film isn't supposed to be historically accurate, but proponents of the film can point to the historical accuracy of the film to justify whatever points they'd like to make. It's DoublePlusGood!
:rolleyes:

Nope, sorry. Either you take it as a historical documentary gone awry or as a stylized comic book adaptation about a historical event using that events themes.

The former is what some of these people seem to skewer it as because they have an issue with he message it sends. The Ladder is how it should be, it is not total fantasy, the basic fact is the Greeks defeated the Persians thus preserving their own future. Something you like to roll your eyes at. I don't need to defend it take it up with the experts. Read anything about why the battle was significant.


This film says much, much more about our current culture and values than it does the Greeks. There's a long tradition of that sort of work, and there's nothing wrong with it, except when it's irredeemably silly: Spartans upheld as paragons and progenitors of the values of western civilization, unlike those effete Athenians.


Oh yeah, they should have made another nihilistic, morally relative, politically correct version of the battle like 99% of what comes out of Hollywood that no one sees. IT IS JUST A MOVIE. :laugh:


Here we see an enraged pantomime Princess Margaret, she is lying in wait for her breakfast. The unsuspecting breakfast tray glides ever closer to its doom. The enraged pantomime royal person is poised for the kill. She raises her harpoon and fires. Pang! Right in the toast. A brief struggle and all is over. Poor breakfast!

cute

[G.]

Back to what's important,
If you like plenty of stylized female nudity (Lena Headey) along with your stylized violence (everywhere) this is for you. The artwork isn't as true to Frank Miller's work as Bobby Rodriguez' "Sin City" was, but certainly true to Miller's style. Did I mention Lena Headey looks great with or without clothes and can actually act...?

ocAll I need to know!:thumbup:

(back OT, I read the original reveiw the same way coolhand did. The reviewer had me at "disfugured lesbians".:p Complaining because the movie did NOT contain an anti-war message sealed the deal.)

Now let's talk about "Grindhouse".

tarantino and rodriguez (http://youtube.com/watch?v=I6l-InqDHmA):thumbup:

Then we can discuss the philosophical and moral dillemas of zombies.

[oddlycalm]

Now let's talk about "Grindhouse".....Then we can discuss the philosophical and moral dillemas of zombies. Rose McGowan ... Cherry - segment 'Planet Terror' / Pam - segment 'Death Proof' :thumbup: :laugh:

Not sure the machine gun leg prosthesis is historically accurate, but the sleaze is 100% B movie, or cinematis americanus as I like to refer to it... :gomer:

As far as the '300' controvery is concerned, those with an actual education were likley not overly impressed with Cecil B. DeMille's tender devotion to historical accuracy any more than they were the near endless stream of silly jingoistic war films during the the 1950's and early 60's either. Hollyweed has never concerned itself with historical accuracy, philosophical sophistication and has never suffered a moment from the curse of integrity...:D

I suppose that's why their stuff is more entertaining than a history lecture?

oc

[Andrew Longman]

Hollyweed has never concerned itself with historical accuracy, philosophical sophistication and has never suffered a moment from the curse of integrity...:D
oc

Even classic "A" movies like "Bridge Over the River Kwai" had it all wrong. Great movie about the wrong bridge over the wrong river that never really needed the British help to build.

The true story is perhaps more heroic and pathetic and makes the Japanese perhaps more evil and more competent, but it doesn't mean its a bad movie.

[datachicane]

I suppose that's why their stuff is more entertaining than a history lecture?

oc

Depends on the lecturer.

[oddlycalm]

Depends on the lecturer. Touché

oc

[coolhand]

(back OT, I read the original reveiw the same way coolhand did. The reviewer had me at "disfugured lesbians".:p Complaining because the movie did NOT contain an anti-war message sealed the deal.)


Exactly, it was a film about war that was pretty much apolitical, and makes a certain group grind their teeth watching it.

[nrc]

We went last night and enjoyed it a lot. We learned some important historical lessons. The most important is that the Spartans shouted a lot with a Scottish accent, much like the Highlanders. This seems to be a common trait of ancient badasses that historians should examine further.

[coolhand]

Yeah and I just saw Papillon on AMC. They all had American accents. what gives :gomer:

[TrueBrit]

Saw it last week, and I really don't know what all the fuss is about. It's a fairly decent gore-fest around a vaguely historical theme...

I have absolutely no idea how anyone of either political persuasion sees anything other than a blood-splattered rendition of a comic book...

I will tell you this much though, the Scottish Spartan's wife was a tasty bit of crumpet....cor blimey!!!:thumbup: