ALMS vs. Grand Am Times

[Indy]

Of course I won't be able to convince you, you have no concept of reality. :gomer:

There are plenty of current and former CART, Atlantic, ALMS, etc. drivers that drive Grand-Am, are they not really racing?

We have a failure of language here. Yes, of course they are "racing," just like me in the kart, but I am talking about "real racing," or motorsport, if you will. That involves more emphasis on technlogy and and innovation, and is more sport and less entertainment. This is only true in racing, by the way, not in any other sport, because racing is about finding ways to go faster, while the wheeled entertainment you prefer is almost purely about driving faster.

And, yes, I know these are not black and white issues. GA still affords some room for technological improvement, but the overall philosophies are different, and especially with the technology of ALMS as a contrast, GA is clearly intended to be about driving race cars and not about innovative motorsport.

[Rob]

I am talking about "real racing," or motorsport, if you will. That involves more emphasis on technlogy and and innovation, and is more sport and less entertainment.
I find this to be an ironic statement when posted on a Champ Car board. Does this mean that a spec series with a 25-year-old engine formula taking their show to the people for a three-day festival of speed is a bad thing?

[racer2c]

I find this to be an ironic statement when posted on a Champ Car board. Does this mean that a spec series with a 25-year-old engine formula taking their show to the people for a three-day festival of speed is a bad thing?

In some ways yes. But how does beach volleyball affect the racing? The rebuilding of Champ Car is a different conversation all together.

[Sean O'Gorman]

We have a failure of language here. Yes, of course they are "racing," just like me in the kart, but I am talking about "real racing," or motorsport, if you will. That involves more emphasis on technlogy and and innovation, and is more sport and less entertainment. This is only true in racing, by the way, not in any other sport, because racing is about finding ways to go faster, while the wheeled entertainment you prefer is almost purely about driving faster.

And, yes, I know these are not black and white issues. GA still affords some room for technological improvement, but the overall philosophies are different, and especially with the technology of ALMS as a contrast, GA is clearly intended to be about driving race cars and not about innovative motorsport.

Why is "real" racing not about sport, and is more about technology? Its a damn race, not a multi-million dollar science fair.

Here is what I don't understand about you guys. Look at the average ALMS race. Ooh, wow, high-tech, pretty cars, awesome. Sure, its great to appreciate some of that, but 80 laps into an ALMS race, everyone is on a different lap, and nobody is battling each other. The same way it was the lap before, and the lap before that, and the lap before that, etc. How does seeing a TDI prototype go past you for the 150th time doing the exact same thing it did the previous 149 times still hold your interest?

Lap 80 of a Grand-Am race at that same track could very well have two or three top drivers (race winners in Champ Car, or Atlantics, or ALMS, for whatever that's worth) battling nose to tail for the lead with a change in position imminent at any corner. The cars may have their various strengths and weaknesses, but are essentially even, meaning its going to be hard work for the second place driver to take the lead, but just the fact that there is actually a battle for position is exciting. These cars clearly aren't easy to drive (and I dare you to find an opinion from ANYONE with a relevent opinion who thinks otherwise), and winning a Grand-Am race says alot about the drivers who do it. If it was easy, hacks like J.C. France and Brian Tuttle would be winning races too, right? Come to think of it, even Dyson Racing hasn't won in Grand-Am yet, I don't notice them even being a factor half the time. Same equipment as everyone else, and they are part of a team that has won many races in the past, why can't they podium in Grand-Am like they do in LMP1? :rofl:

ALMS is not struggling because "NASCAR/ISC are trying to force contrived racing down every motorsports fan's throat" or whatever you guys are trying to proclaim, its struggling because the people who pay money to race sports cars realize theres no point in losing to a mega factory race after race. Like Peter Olivola said earlier in the thread, all road racing is competitor-driven. Its just that the successful series has been designed so that the competitors have reason to join and stick around, and the struggling series has been designed so that a guy with a fetish for a race in France can have his own little playground and burn lots of money in the process.

[Peter Olivola]

I don't think I limited my comment to road racing. With the exception of NASCAR's top three series and F1, ALL racing is participant driven and a case could be made not to exclude any of those, either.


Like Peter Olivola said earlier in the thread, all road racing is competitor-driven.

[Indy]

I find this to be an ironic statement when posted on a Champ Car board. Does this mean that a spec series with a 25-year-old engine formula taking their show to the people for a three-day festival of speed is a bad thing?

Yes, it is. It is the best open wheel in North America at the moment, and at the rate it is growing, I expect it to be much more interesting in the future. But, for now, despite being good enough to hold my interest, it is a very pale imitation of what CART was before the split.

And, notably, it, like ALMS, has to contend with a France family inspired puppet show of a series, which has threatened its survival and diluted the sport. For now, at least, I not only enjoy the racing for what it is, but I stand on principle against the evil mediocrity that originates in Daytona and Charlotte (and, through the strings of the puppetmasters, at 16th and Georgetown).

[Indy]

Why is "real" racing not about sport, and is more about technology? Its a damn race, not a multi-million dollar science fair.

... ... ...

Its just that the successful series has been designed so that the competitors have reason to join and stick around, and the struggling series has been designed so that a guy with a fetish for a race in France can have his own little playground and burn lots of money in the process.

It's ok, man, we get it. You would rather skip the game and watch the slam dunk competition. You don't have to defend that, but don't try to tell me that it is a real game.

[RichK]

There are people who throw darts, and there are people who throw the little velcro balls at the fabric "dartboard." If you like the fuzzy little balls, then good for you, but please do not think you can convince us it is real sport.

That pretty much nails it. :thumbup:

[Sean O'Gorman]

It's ok, man, we get it. You would rather skip the game and watch the slam dunk competition. You don't have to defend that, but don't try to tell me that it is a real game.

Again, I ask you, why is it not "real" racing when the rules are designed so that the HUMAN BEING BEHIND THE WHEEL is made into the main factor in who wins a race? Are you saying a Daytona Prototype is easy to drive, and that it is easy to win a race in Grand-Am?

[cameraman]

There is a pecking order to all this. I just really don't agree with hating Grand Am.

F1, GP2, Champ Car, Tour de France, Louis Vuitton Cup & the America's Cup - never miss a race
WRC - wouldn't miss a race if ******* Speed would show them:flame:
24 hrs of LeMans - watch/listen to all 24 hrs.
Atlantics, MotoGP, ALMS - watch 80% of the races
AMA - watch 50% of the races - there just is not enough time
Grand Am - watch about four a year & I'll go when they come to town.
Star Mazda watch a couple a year and went to the fubar of a race at MMP
GA Cup, Speed GT & Cup - there just ain't enough hours in the day even with a dvr but I'll go when they come to town.
IRL - I read Pressdog
Drag racing - just don't care
Nextel, Busch, ARCA, Hooters, USAC, anything on a dirt oval - have not seen a race in at least 20 years and could not possibly care less.

I don't kill myself to watch GA races but I don't hate them and I don't hate the drivers & team owners who run it. It isn't top tier but it is a relatively level playing field and that is what matters most to me. And GA is not the cause of the problem of ALMS grid size, the terradollars it takes to run against an Audi, Penske or Corvette is...

[matthole]

Again, I ask you, why is it not "real" racing when the rules are designed so that the HUMAN BEING BEHIND THE WHEEL is made into the main factor in who wins a race? Are you saying a Daytona Prototype is easy to drive, and that it is easy to win a race in Grand-Am?

You are claiming the part about the person driving a pigotype being the main factor in who wins. That is a meritless, untrue statement in regards to that abomination of a 'racing series'.

Regardless, there has been no evidence presented in this excruciating thread to refute the basic truth that the france fambly's Grand Sham 'series' sucks. I'm not surprised at this startling revelation since it does, in fact, suck. Wow, look at all that participation in suckage. Let's stand back and rejoice in awe. :rolleyes: :saywhat:

No. It sucks.

The entire Grand Scam 'field' (of 'cars') should be burned at Sebring. The France's should stick to the uber-popular sleds.

An 80-year-old Paul Newman can run those things 'competitively'. While Paul Newman is a superior model of human in every conceivable way, he is sadly still human. Grand Sham is a worthless pile of crap. The earl of sportscars. eot.
:tony:

[FCYTravis]

An 80-year-old Paul Newman can run those things 'competitively'.
Ah, please don't just make **** up. No, he can't. When he tried to drive a Ford Crawford in 2005 at Daytona he pretty much crashed it every time he got in the car. Remember, that was the car that Seabass ended up driving around with a tie-down holding the nose on. :laugh:

He was never even remotely competitive.

[Fio1]

An 80-year-old Paul Newman can run those things 'competitively'.
:tony:

What do you consider 'competitive'? Being 10-15 seconds a lap off the pace at Daytona? Even in his prime, Newman was never 'competitive' outside of some Trans-am or SCCA races. He was some 20 seconds off Rolf Stommelen's times when he finished second at Le Mans in 1979!

Grand-Am racing is fun to wtach. I admit that I've seen 3-4 times as many Rolex series races then ALMS over the past 2 seasons. The Speed coverage is great. and, the marketing is great, you always know when the race is on. ALMS you have to hunt for the race (different channel, differnt times, etc). Obviously that is do to Speed's and Grand-Am's association with Nascar.

The management of Grand-Am is suspect; anyone who saw the G-A Cup race at Miller will know that. They tried to introduce a funky complicated yellow flag procedure, but decided against it when both drivers and officials looked puzzled at the drivers meeting. Then they did everything in their power not to throw a yellow. Watching safety vehicles, including the ambulance, cross the track a few times during the race was pure comedy.....:rolleyes:
Also, did you know that a Grand-Am cup license is the easiest license to get in America? Even easier then SCCA National. You don't even need to get a medical form filled out by a doctor...:saywhat:

[FCYTravis]

Watching safety vehicles, including the ambulance, cross the track a few times during the race was pure comedy.....:rolleyes:
Huh? We should be *applauding* Grand-Am's willingness to send safety trucks out under local flags, not attacking them for it.

Part of what has ruined big-time pro road racing in America is an overreliance on the full-course yellow for situations that could/should be handled locally with proper flags, proper staff and proper driver respect for the rescue workers and their fellow drivers. Crash trucks and tow rigs run hot track all the time in SCCA club racing - there's nothing "comedy" about it. It's the way things should work.

Grand-Am has historically been way, way too FCY-happy, and it was a very pleasant surprise to see only one full-course yellow in 11 hours and 30 minutes of racing between GA Cup and Rolex that weekend. Grand-Am deserves credit for trying to keep the safety car parked.

[cameraman]

You throw a full course yellow at MMP and it will take 20 minutes to get back to green if you are lucky. They got the job done without ruining the race. I don't know what you are bitching about.

[Indy]

Again, I ask you, why is it not "real" racing when the rules are designed so that the HUMAN BEING BEHIND THE WHEEL is made into the main factor in who wins a race? Are you saying a Daytona Prototype is easy to drive, and that it is easy to win a race in Grand-Am?

I have no idea if they are easier to drive than ALMS cars. I have been told by CC drivers that they are easier to drive than champ cars. I think by that they meant less demanding. I know that they think they are "fun," whatever that means.

If you are asking why racing is not all about the driver, then there is probably little I can do to change your mind. If you want to have a series that is all about the driver, like IROC for instance, then that is fine, but it is merely a novelty and not in any way top level motorsport. Racing is about the combination of superior courage and skill on the part of the driver, and showing up at the track with a better car, and being better at adapting that car to the condition of the track. If you do everything you can to remove the part that technology plays in the mix, then you lose a vital part of what the sport is. Motor racing is not like any other sport, in that it is not about a purely human competition. It is about the combination of athleticism and engineering.

[racer2c]

This has digressed to the debate on whether an 80 year old actor is competitive in a DP car .


BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!


:gomer:

[extramundane]

These cars clearly aren't easy to drive (and I dare you to find an opinion from ANYONE with a relevent opinion who thinks otherwise), and winning a Grand-Am race says alot about the drivers who do it. If it was easy, hacks like J.C. France and Brian Tuttle would be winning races too, right? Come to think of it, even Dyson Racing hasn't won in Grand-Am yet, I don't notice them even being a factor half the time. Same equipment as everyone else, and they are part of a team that has won many races in the past, why can't they podium in Grand-Am like they do in LMP1? :rofl:

I wasn't going to get re-involved in this, but sometimes opportunities just present themselves (http://www.the-paddock.net/content/view/240615/49/):


“Well the Grand-Am is clearly a lot of fun and for me it’s a kind of car I can drive. These cars (ALMS LMP1 Lolas) take a lot of effort to drive, and at my age it’s a little harder."

[chop456]

http://www.motleycrow.com/ImageHost/post-17-43210-pwned.jpg

:laugh:

[Easy]

So GA sucks because:

A: It is low/old technology despite being newer designs than anything on a CCWS grid.

B: The France family is trying to kill IMSA, apparently by scheduling non-conflicting races so that there competitors can do both series.

C: DP's are not "real" prototypes which I assume means they are production based racecars.

D: The actual race is less a part of motorsport than R&D and wind tunnel work and GA isn't about innovation. At that point you might as well just watch some spec series...

[racer2c]

So GA sucks because:

A: It is low/old technology despite being newer designs than anything on a CCWS grid.

B: The France family is trying to kill IMSA, apparently by scheduling non-conflicting races so that there competitors can do both series.

C: DP's are not "real" prototypes which I assume means they are production based racecars.

D: The actual race is less a part of motorsport than R&D and wind tunnel work and GA isn't about innovation. At that point you might as well just watch some spec series...


Don't forget to add that 80 year old actors aren't competitive in them when they drive them in competition.:gomer:

[extramundane]

So GA sucks because:

A: It is low/old technology despite being newer designs than anything on a CCWS grid.

B: The France family is trying to kill IMSA, apparently by scheduling non-conflicting races so that there competitors can do both series.

C: DP's are not "real" prototypes which I assume means they are production based racecars.

D: The actual race is less a part of motorsport than R&D and wind tunnel work and GA isn't about innovation. At that point you might as well just watch some spec series...

We all actually love GA. We just love screwing w/ O'Gorman more. :tony:

[Sean O'Gorman]

I wasn't going to get re-involved in this, but sometimes opportunities just present themselves (http://www.the-paddock.net/content/view/240615/49/):

Ok how old is that guy?

[rabbit]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[extramundane]

Ok how old is that guy?

About the same age as Hurley Haywood, EFR, Bob Stallings and probably several other GA drivers.

[Fio1]

You throw a full course yellow at MMP and it will take 20 minutes to get back to green if you are lucky. They got the job done without ruining the race. I don't know what you are bitching about.

You obviously weren't there!

Taking 3 minutes to get an ambulance to a potential injured driver is stupid (back marker Cobalt who had a major shunt in the first 20 minutes of the race). Leaving the tow truck on the exit of a corner for 3 laps (10 minutes) was more dangerous then just leaving the stranded Porsche in the gravel, which is what they did anyways.

[Sean O'Gorman]

About the same age as Hurley Haywood, EFR, Bob Stallings and probably several other GA drivers.

And how many races did those guys win this year?

[extramundane]

And how many races did those guys win this year?

I could answer, but this whole game is beginning to look familiar...

http://static.flickr.com/37/74353767_04c2efc838_m.jpg

[FCYTravis]

Since when was Rob Dyson ever competitive in a DP? I don't think Rob would be offended by the statement that in DP, his team has pretty much run mid-back of the pack every time they go out. Sure, Rob can drive it. That doesn't mean he can drive it with anything remotely close to the speed required to drive at the front of a 25-car Daytona Prototype field.

Oh, and Bob hasn't been a full-time driver since last year, if you didn't notice. Nor has EFR. :)

Bob ran two stints in the 24 Hours and one lap at Mexico City. That's it - he's stepped out of the cockpit to focus on making the #99 team a top-rank championship contender. This team's successes have come with the combo of Alex and Jon.

[extramundane]

Since when was Rob Dyson ever competitive in a DP? I don't think Rob would be offended by the statement that in DP, his team has pretty much run mid-back of the pack every time they go out. Sure, Rob can drive it. That doesn't mean he can drive it with anything remotely close to the speed required to drive at the front of a 25-car Daytona Prototype field.

Oh, and Bob hasn't been a full-time driver since last year, if you didn't notice. Nor has EFR. :)

Bob ran two stints in the 24 Hours and one lap at Mexico City. That's it - he's stepped out of the cockpit to focus on making the #99 team a top-rank championship contender. This team's successes have come with the combo of Alex and Jon.

Somehow I knew mentioning Bob's name would drag you into this. ;)
Anyway, that's not the point. The point is that a claim was made that DPs weren't easier to drive than LMPs, whereas someone who's driven both (and has little to gain by stirring up the shi'ite) said otherwise. I personally don't care one way or the other (though if Paul Gentilozzi starts posting here, then DPs are the greatest cars EVAR!!!).

And since we're on it: while Rob may be slower than me going to the grocery store these days, from what I've seen, his team seems to be as much to blame as he is. If a Leitzinger/Wallace combo running out of the same shop is also out to lunch, that sounds like a problem deeper than driver ability.

[FCYTravis]

Bob subscribes to the Dirty Harry school of race driving. "A man's got to know his limitations." ;)


Anyway, that's not the point. The point is that a claim was made that DPs weren't easier to drive than LMPs, whereas someone who's driven both (and has little to gain by stirring up the shi'ite) said otherwise.
They might be easier to drive at Rob's "let's tool around the back" speed... but I dunno, if you really want an opinion about which is easier/more fun to drive, I'd ask Andy Wallace or Butch Leitzinger - those guys can pedal either way.


And since we're on it: while Rob may be slower than me going to the grocery store these days, from what I've seen, his team seems to be as much to blame as he is. If a Leitzinger/Wallace combo running out of the same shop is also out to lunch, that sounds like a problem deeper than driver ability.
Quite so. The steep decline of the Howard-Boss team from last year's multiple-race-winning performance was probably one of the shockers of the 2006 season. They just couldn't get their car to go fast.

Maybe they needed to put Ricky Bobby behind the wheel :laugh:

[extramundane]

They might be easier to drive at Rob's "let's tool around the back" speed... but I dunno, if you really want an opinion about which is easier/more fun to drive, I'd ask Andy Wallace or Butch Leitzinger - those guys can pedal either way.

You have to admit, though: Rob's the fastest one-armed 60-year old on the track. And it finally gives Chris the chance to be faster than his co-driver. But somehow I don't see Andy Wallace as being 100% unbiased when asked to comment on a Max Crawford-designed race car. Call me crazy. ;)


Quite so. The steep decline of the Howard-Boss team from last year's multiple-race-winning performance was probably one of the shockers of the 2006 season. They just couldn't get their car to go fast.

Maybe they needed to put Ricky Bobby behind the wheel :laugh:

Or a Porsche under the hood.

[Easy]

But somehow I don't see Andy Wallace as being 100% unbiased when asked to comment on a Max Crawford-designed race car. Call me crazy. ;)


Think he calls him, "Dad"?

[FCYTravis]

Or a Porsche under the hood.
Nah. The Ford is really the motor to have right now - fuel mileage, fuel mileage, fuel mileage - and the Pontiac and Lexus really aren't far behind in terms of horsepower.

[TorontoWorker]

That's an inaccurate statement, when you consider 99% of drivers pay to race. They damn well better be able to find warm and fuzzies to pour on a series if they are spending 6-7 figures on it!

Not to split hairs or anything but... if I go to a company and sell them on the idea of sponsoring a car in a race series, for let's say $2M US for a whole season and then I go find a team and sell them on the idea of me driving their car for the whole season for $1.5M US and I as the driver keep the difference, (and of course my sponsor knows I'm doing this), is the car being sponsored or is the driver?

You could say the driver has in fact subcontracted the sponsorship and is the sponsors contact admin person!

A lot of racing driver are in this situation - right up and into F1 in the back marker type teams. Alex Yoong I believe had done something like this. He somehow got his country to pony up a budget so he could race with Minardi in F1 and it was said that he kept 20% of the budget that came from the Malaysian lottery company Magnum. I think the company is run by a relative of the PM.

Anyway...

Isn't it rare to find a driver who just walks into a team with no backing and hands over cash? Something like that in my mind would in fact be a "pay driver". The drivers who bring a sponsor into the team so that they get to drive in my mind, is less a pay driver then a marketing arm of the sponsor.

Here's my ranking of what is a Pro driver:

1. Fully paid drive by race team.
2. Driver brings sponsor to team - sponsor nominates him to drive.
3. Driver owns his own company and hires a team, puts his companies name on the side of the car and goes racing. Tax write off.
4. Driver is from wealthy family brings wheelbarrow full of bankdrafts.
5. Driver is in some kind of import business, brings suitcases of cash (small bills) to the track for each race...
6. Driver is related to series ownership. Nuff said.