View Full Version : Why is everyone all of a sudden a terrorist suspect?
I'm getting tired of this politically correct B.S. If cops are looking for a suspect in a building that is white mid-20's, will the cops stop every black guy walking by? No. Are they going to search every Asian women in the building? No! :rolleyes: So, why the heck are busting everyone's balls at airports because a couple of crazy islamic pakastanis are trying to blow-up planes? Are you telling me that I am a threat because I have a Vitamin Water and the latest Autosport? Worse, are you telling me that my wife can not carry a diaper bag for my baby on an airplane anymore? :shakehead I think they need to start looking at the people who fit the profile of terrorists instead of just picking everyone out. At least they can do a more accurate job targeting the posible suspects instead of wasting time arguing with an 80 year-old lady from Boston. :shakehead
If you have 5 planes leaving in an hour from a terminal with around 1,000 passengers and only have maybe 40 that fit the profile of a terrorist, doesn't it make more sense spending the time and energy questioning these guys rather putting everyone through extra security? The more Chaos you have, the better chance a terrorist can slip through.....
Wheel-Nut
08-10-06, 02:09 PM
Would you suspect this guy of anything?
http://www.crimelibrary.com/graphics/photos/serial_killers/notorious/mcveigh/1a.jpg
Wheel-Nut
08-10-06, 02:10 PM
What about this dude?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/57/Mn_kaczynski.jpg
Sean O'Gorman
08-10-06, 02:14 PM
Are you telling me that I am a threat because I have a Vitamin Water
No, just a tool. :gomer: ;)
well first, the obvious answer is flying is not a right, so if you don't like the way they do things, drive or take a boat.
i'd like to see cork's repsonse to this.
I agree they should be profiling but Wheel-Nut's examples show how short-sighted that could be. This will probably pass soon enough. We were in Vegas last weekend. Glad we came back Tuesday.
race chica
08-10-06, 02:45 PM
I leave form BWI tomorrow morning for Milwaukee. As long as you aren't flying to or from the UK, its still okay to have carry ons. So the diper bag is safe, just pack the desitin in the check luggage :) Does this mean that people cant buy "personal items" at the duty free and Doh! shops after the check points?
TrueBrit
08-10-06, 02:52 PM
I leave form BWI tomorrow morning for Milwaukee. As long as you aren't flying to or from the UK, its still okay to have carry ons. So the diper bag is safe, just pack the desitin in the check luggage :) Does this mean that people cant buy "personal items" at the duty free and Doh! shops after the check points?
At the moment all Duty Free is off limits in the UK apparently...
Does this mean that people cant buy "personal items" at the duty free and Doh! shops after the check points?
I heard a little while ago that they have set up additional security screening at the gates to prevent people taking onboard what they may have picked up after security. The duty free might be okay as they usually bring that to you at the gate.
I leave form BWI tomorrow morning for Milwaukee. As long as you aren't flying to or from the UK, its still okay to have carry ons. So the diper bag is safe, just pack the desitin in the check luggage :) Does this mean that people cant buy "personal items" at the duty free and Doh! shops after the check points?
More concerning than the Desitin is not being able to carry a juice box or two onboard. I can't wait to travel with a fussy 2 almost 3 year-old w/o juice handy. :(
re: duty free shops...unless the purchases are shipped, yer SOL. The had a piece on the local news today about food and drink places taking a hit due to the new rules. Glad I finished flying to and from Philly the past month last weekend. :cool:
-Kevin
I'm getting tired of this politically correct B.S. If cops are looking for a suspect in a building that is white mid-20's, will the cops stop every black guy walking by? No. Are they going to search every Asian women in the building? No! :rolleyes: So, why the heck are busting everyone's balls at airports because a couple of crazy islamic pakastanis are trying to blow-up planes? Are you telling me that I am a threat because I have a Vitamin Water and the latest Autosport? Worse, are you telling me that my wife can not carry a diaper bag for my baby on an airplane anymore? :shakehead I think they need to start looking at the people who fit the profile of terrorists instead of just picking everyone out. At least they can do a more accurate job targeting the posible suspects instead of wasting time arguing with an 80 year-old lady from Boston. :shakehead
If you have 5 planes leaving in an hour from a terminal with around 1,000 passengers and only have maybe 40 that fit the profile of a terrorist, doesn't it make more sense spending the time and energy questioning these guys rather putting everyone through extra security? The more Chaos you have, the better chance a terrorist can slip through.....
We have met the enemy, and he is us. :(
-Kevin
Dr. Corkski
08-10-06, 03:20 PM
All profiling would do is make you feel safer while doing virtually nothing at all in terms of overall security. To think otherwise would be underestimating the intelligence of the terrorists and vastly underestimating your own ignorance and stupidity.
TKGAngel
08-10-06, 03:21 PM
The dad unit is a TSA screener. Based on what they were told this morning, no liquids of any kind are allowed. This means no perfume, beverages (even those bought in food stands past the security checkpoint), hair gel, sunscreen, shampoo, conditioner, toothpaste, etc can be brought in a carry-on. When in doubt, put it in your checked luggage, and get to the airport a recommended 3 hours early, especially if your flight is at a peak travel time.
I'm not saying anyone here wouldn't be their usual charming selves, but screening would be a lot less painless if people realized that the TSA screeners are just doing their job. You know if the s**** were to hit the fan, these people would be the first ones attacked. Be polite, don't give them any grief, and your screening process will go smoothly.
(This post not paid for by the TSA :) )
The airlines should announce they've hired CIA mindreaders to patrol the airports. Then they could arrest anyone wearing a tinfoil hat. :p
Tifosi24
08-10-06, 03:26 PM
All profiling would do is make you feel safer while doing virtually nothing at all in terms of overall security. To think otherwise would be underestimating the intelligence of the terrorists and vastly underestimating your own ignorance and stupidity.
:thumbup:
Richard Reid didn't match the profile of an Islamic terrorist either. Profiling is of dubious worth, not to mention unconstitutional, and it just makes possible suspects think of more clever things as Cork already mentioned.
race chica
08-10-06, 03:34 PM
Anyone know how long these new rules will be in effect?
Anyone know how long these new rules will be in effect?
I think not very long. The public won't put up with being deprived their starbucks for long.
Guys. If they found a plot to blow up airplanes from England (europe) to USA. What would preventing people from carrying water on a flight from San Diego to Houston do? Meanwhile, nothing is being done on flights from Frankfurt to New York; Paris to Los Angles or Milan to Atlanta. Don't you see something here? The only thing this is doing is p*ssing people off, hurting the economy and putting fear in everyone's head. I.E something that Al Quida said they want to accomplish with terrorism.... ;)
I wonder how they are going check the food that they bring on the plane now? How are they going to know that 1 can of Pepsi on so and so airline is not really a Pepsi? Or what about pens? Can't you hide liquid in pens? If Al Quida wanted to shoot down an airplane, all they had to do was stand on the roof top of one of those project complexes in Paris, Rome or London with one of those shoulder-launched missile weapons.
Again, I don't see how preventing an old llady to carry some water on a flight from Sacramento is going to solve anything.
The terrorists have won. We, as a nation, are starting to look everywhere for a terrorist plot. Hence, we are now living in terror.
People don't fly now because of fear of terrorism. I don't fly now because it's too much of a pain in the rectum to get on a plane.
Experts: Air security focuses on past threats
Laptops, cell phones and watches pose potential danger
Thursday, August 10, 2006 Posted: 1550 GMT (2350 HKT)
(AP) -- The next terrorist attack could be carried out by airline passengers who hide bomb ingredients in hair gel or baby milk bottles and assemble their weapon in a locked restroom, security experts warn.
The announcement Thursday of a foiled plot to blow up jetliners flying from London to the U.S. using explosives hidden in hand luggage could be the opening of a new chapter in air travel, they said: hours-long security checks, visual inspections of prescription drugs, bans on everyday items.
Bomb experts and troubleshooters for airline security interviewed by The Associated Press said mobile phones, computers, wrist watches or anything else with a battery should be prohibited from flights.
Perhaps most chillingly, they warned that security staff at airports are not looking for the right things -- and the change in tactics required would likely overwhelm current security operations.
"That theater we see, of people taking off shoes, is not going to stop a suicide bomber. The terrorists have already sniffed out the weak spots and are adopting new tactics," said Irish security analyst Tom Clonan, who noted that security measures usually are designed for the last attack, not the next threat.
He said a terrorist group will almost certainly try to blow up a plane with a bomb assembled on board unless security measures improve fundamentally.
Anti-terrorist authorities in Britain and the United States declined to describe the bomb design in the foiled plot -- whether it was primarily liquid or, more likely, contained liquids in a more complex ingredient list.
Whatever the case, experts predicted passengers may soon have to change their travel habits radically.
"Every businessman needs to have his laptop on a long-haul flight, and now you won't be able to. Even a battery-operated watch would provide enough power for a detonator. All you need is one shock," said Alan Hatcher, managing director of the International School for Security and Explosives Education in Salisbury, England.
Airlines have toyed with the idea of banning innocuous personal-care items from carry-on luggage following previous security scares, only to have the focus change because of the difficulty of enforcing tougher rules.
But Thursday's developments could dramatically increase the likelihood that security will come first no matter what the logistical hurdles.
The technology for the kind of liquid or crystallized explosives possibly involved in the thwarted terror plot is not new.
The threat first appeared in January 1995 in the Philippines, when police stumbled on a suspected al-Qaeda plot to target U.S.-bound planes with bombs based on nitroglycerine carried on board in containers for contact lens solution.
At that time, aviation authorities announced plans to ban aerosols, bottled gels and containers of liquids holding more than 30 milliliters, about an ounce, on U.S. airliners departing Manila, but the idea was never properly enforced.
Even then, baby formula was excluded from the ban -- even though, in powdered form, it can provide a good vehicle for masking crystallized explosives.
A decade later in Belfast, Northern Ireland, an Algerian man was convicted of possessing 25 computer disks detailing how to bring down an aircraft using, among other things, crystallized explosives hidden in a container of talcum powder.
During that trial, FBI explosives expert Donald Sachtleben testified he built and detonated three bombs based on the instructions found in the Algerian's home.
Despite this decade-old knowledge, airport security officials around the globe still permit passengers to carry a wide range of containers onto planes without any visual inspection.
The increasing probability that terrorists will try to strike with explosive components hidden in hand-luggage has been accompanied by a trend among some discount airlines to encourage passengers to rely more on carry-on baggage.
In recent months Europe's market-leading airline, Irish budget carrier Ryanair, has imposed a mandatory charge on all check-in luggage. An Irish competitor, Aer Lingus, has announced plans to follow suit.
"I'm really surprised the Irish aviation authority hasn't stepped in to moderate this rush to hand luggage by airlines," said aviation expert Gerry Byrne. "All our airport security has been geared towards baggage going into the hold. ... It will overwhelm security if the emphasis is suddenly switched to (relying on) hand baggage."
A British security expert, Steve Park, said a likely terrorist scenario would involve a two- or three-member team boarding the same flight, each carrying a different part of the planned bomb.
"They could combine resources on the plane. That would be perfectly possible on a busy flight," he said.
Critical to conventional bombs is a power source to trigger a detonator. Clonan said cell phones could provide an ideal power-timer unit for a bomb.
"In mid-flight you could go into the toilet, attach the mobile phone to the explosives and, as the plane makes a final approach over a densely populated urban area, you detonate it," he said.
To puncture an aircraft's fuselage would require an explosive charge "half the size of a cigarette packet," he said.
Hatcher said "liquid bombs" were not the most likely explosive. He said it was far more likely a terror cell would try to smuggle on an explosive in crystalline or powder form and to combine it with an acid-based compound.
Hatcher said terrorists might also construct an on-board incendiary bomb based on paraffin or gasoline, which if ignited in mid-Atlantic could destroy an aircraft before it could land.
None of these items, he noted, can be detected by a typical $5 million X-ray machine used to scan luggage.
Hands-on inspection is the only way to tell if a dark-plastic medicine vial really contains what it says on the label.
"You'll have to carry your prescription and prove to security that the medicine really is what it is. But for 20 million people a year going through Heathrow? How do you do that?" Hatcher said, foreseeing a future airport arrivals hall with five-hour security checks.
Even that scenario, he said, could lead to terror attacks -- detonating bombs in an airport terminal, not on a plane.
"You can carry a bag into the center of an airport with thousands of people around you before you are ever screened. That, too, must change," he said.
TravelGal
08-10-06, 04:40 PM
Just put the latest guidelines in a separate thread.
People don't fly now because of fear of terrorism.
Then why is air travel traffic @ record highs now?
-Kevin
People don't fly now because of fear of terrorism.
Have you been to an airport lately? There is no shortage of people flying.
Wheel-Nut
08-10-06, 04:54 PM
and we have the A380 coming online!! :p
Dr. Corkski
08-10-06, 05:05 PM
I think not very long. The public won't put up with being deprived their starbucks for long.This is government regulation we are talking about. Nothing will change until Starbucks bitches about losing money because they can't sell their overpriced pisswater at airports. :laugh:
TravelGal
08-10-06, 05:18 PM
This is government regulation we are talking about. Nothing will change until Starbucks bitches about losing money because they can't sell their overpriced pisswater at airports. :laugh:
They can sell it and you can buy it. You just can't bring it onto the plane with you.
They can sell it and you can buy it. You just can't bring it onto the plane with you.
Or past the security checkpoint.
-Kevin
You just can't bring it onto the plane with you.
But that will be an intolerable inconvienence to some of our fellow citizens. :laugh:
Sean O'Gorman
08-10-06, 05:49 PM
The terrorists have won. We, as a nation, are starting to look everywhere for a terrorist plot. Hence, we are now living in terror.
People don't fly now because of fear of terrorism. I don't fly now because it's too much of a pain in the rectum to get on a plane.
You could always buy an "IT."
http://www.planearium2.de/pics/pics-511-5.jpg
The funny thing about the fiasco in the UK is that now there is more likely the posiblity of a passanger getting their bags on a plane without them making it on board. Think about it. How many people are going to miss their flights now that all this extra security is going on? If anybody has ever been to Heathrow they know what a mess it normally is. Imagine now. You can have 30 to 40 minute walk to your gate after you check in (if you are at say gate 42 or 44, you are good 20 to 30 minute walk after the lounge area. I walk fast and I did a good 20 minute walk after the big lounge area where you buy the Autosport. And, if you ever did a transfer at Heathrow you know that is really an hour plus mess (you take a 10 minute bus ride, do security and the walk I talked about). So now more then ever a potential terrorist can get his lugage on the plane without himself. I don't know, but for me that is a much easier scenario (getting a bag on board without terrorist) then trying to get a few terrorists with their liquid potions on board a plane without drawing attention from security or immigration. Remember when the 9-11 deal went off, these guys had to pass minimal security and zero immigration. In England it is very difficult and especially if flying to the USA. Therefore, these guys have to have all their Visas in order and not be one of the 'lists'. It would be virually imposible to get 19 guys on four flights like 9-11 from Heathrow.
Dr. Corkski
08-10-06, 07:40 PM
The funny thing about the fiasco in the UK is that now there is more likely the posiblity of a passanger getting their bags on a plane without them making it on board. Think about it. How many people are going to miss their flights now that all this extra security is going on? If anybody has ever been to Heathrow they know what a mess it normally is. Imagine now. You can have 30 to 40 minute walk to your gate after you check in (if you are at say gate 42 or 44, you are good 20 to 30 minute walk after the lounge area. I walk fast and I did a good 20 minute walk after the big lounge area where you buy the Autosport. And, if you ever did a transfer at Heathrow you know that is really an hour plus mess (you take a 10 minute bus ride, do security and the walk I talked about). So now more then ever a potential terrorist can get his lugage on the plane without himself. I don't know, but for me that is a much easier scenario (getting a bag on board without terrorist) then trying to get a few terrorists with their liquid potions on board a plane without drawing attention from security or immigration. Remember when the 9-11 deal went off, these guys had to pass minimal security and zero immigration. In England it is very difficult and especially if flying to the USA. Therefore, these guys have to have all their Visas in order and not be one of the 'lists'. It would be virually imposible to get 19 guys on four flights like 9-11 from Heathrow.Make sure you send a copy of that to CNN, so they can show on TV in detail how exactly to do that for the terrorists. :gomer:
My understanding is that they check boarding passes against checked bagage. We've been on planes where departure was delayed because someone checked a bag and then failed to board.
Make sure you send a copy of that to CNN, so they can show on TV in detail how exactly to do that for the terrorists. :gomer:
Well, I'm sure the terrorists are one step ahead of any of us, and unfortunately the security as well. No matter how much coffee and water they collect at the gate. I'm sorry but, the security in the USA sucks compared to some European countries.
I've done my fair bit of traveling in 30 years. Ten years ago I was at the German GP and flew back from Frankfurt to New York by TWA. I had my passport checked 6 times before I get on the plane. The last 3 were as follows:After passenger ONLY imigration, you get into a 4 or 5 gate section of the airport and get your carry-on and passports checked. There in only one way in and out. Then you get checked before you get to your gate which is completely inclosed. Also one way in and out. Then you get checked before you board the plane. There is no way to get into that inclosed 4-5 gate area without a boarding pass and passport, but we got checked twice afterwards anyways. Why all this? Because of the Lockerbie Scotland Pan-Am flight from years past, the bomb originated from Frankfurt. The reason I mention this is because 10 years ago was the TWA flight 800 tragedy. We landed in New York 10 days or so after the tragedy. We landed and I changed planes (TWA again) to Los Angeles. And, there was no EXTRA security! No one checked my passport in New York before I boarded my flight to L.A. Because of construction I had to exit the airport (taxis around and everything) and come back in. I could have handed my boarding pass to anyone. The only security was an over-weight black lady snapping gum looking at carry-on lugage on the x-ray machine while talking to her friend. 10 days or so after a plane went down leaving this terminal and that was it? :confused: And, I just left an airport that had insanne security because of something that happened some 8 years ago? :saywhat: That, is security! :thumbup:
From FTG's post:
"That theater we see, of people taking off shoes, is not going to stop a suicide bomber. The terrorists have already sniffed out the weak spots and are adopting new tactics," said Irish security analyst Tom Clonan, who noted that security measures usually are designed for the last attack, not the next threat.
The thing to worry about, imho.
Of course they did manage to uncover and stop a terrorist attack, so security measures are working, I suppose. :confused:
I don't fly, so it dosn't bother me what they make passengers do.
This guy has a point: http://www.goofigure.com/UserGoofigureDetail.asp?gooID=6258&
It's time to stop being politically correct and fight terrorists! Spend the time and money by questioning and checking people that fit the terrorist profiles (dodgy white guys as well) instead old ladies and 8 year-olds. :shakehead
Wheel-Nut
08-10-06, 10:56 PM
Speaking of profiling, where's Ank? :rofl:
devilmaster
08-10-06, 11:31 PM
I'll be crossing the border tomorrow morning to drive a couple friends to detroit metro so they can fly down to florida.....
I completely expect to be pulled over and searched at the border...... so much so that we're leaving at 5:30 for a 9 am flight.
So I wish I was actually tired so I kinda could get to bed instead of typing. :gomer:
This guy has a point: http://www.goofigure.com/UserGoofigureDetail.asp?gooID=6258&
It's time to stop being politically correct and fight terrorists! Spend the time and money by questioning and checking people that fit the terrorist profiles (dodgy white guys as well) instead old ladies and 8 year-olds. :shakehead
If the terrorists on 9/11 were smart enough to not appear to be "dodgy arabs" you can rest assured that they would be smart enough not to use "dodgy white guys."
What it sounds like you're really talking about is racial profiling. That goes beyond just being politically incorrect, it violates the equal protection clause of the constitution. I'd rather keep the constitution in tact and suffer a little extra inconvenience in Airport security, thanks.
Lizzerd
08-11-06, 02:12 AM
If the terrorists on 9/11 were smart enough to not appear to be "dodgy arabs" you can rest assured that they would be smart enough not to use "dodgy white guys."
What it sounds like you're really talking about is racial profiling. That goes beyond just being politically incorrect, it violates the equal protection clause of the constitution. I'd rather keep the constitution in tact and suffer a little extra inconvenience in Airport security, thanks.
Screw that. I agree with Fio1.
ferrarigod
08-11-06, 03:35 AM
my mother just flew back to florida from LAX today and the people made her throw away everything but her cover up makeup at the screeners. Then at the gate they made her throw that away. Her ENTIRE makeup kit, and her starbucks :thumdown:
My mother is 59 years old, white woman, who looks like she bakes pies for a living.
How about we stop this idiot shht and START racially profiling all the muslim and muslim immigrants that board planes? Would solve about 99% of the problems, and the 1% that it wouldn't solve are too wacky to be caught anyway.
How about that instead of more stupid rules that will eventually fall out of favor. RETARDED. Or we could just give away more rights until we have nothing left to have. Yes, Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness, but where has the liberty gone?
f****** b***s***
illegal patdowns at football games, illegal usage of phone records, and now this crap? did hitler and mussolini live and emmigrate to America?
illegal patdowns at football games, illegal usage of phone records, and now this crap? did hitler and mussolini live and emmigrate to America?Could be. I'm sure they'd love your racial profiling idea. Maybe to keep it straight we could require everyone with more than a quarter Arab blood wear a little cresent moon symbol on their clothes.
ferrarigod
08-11-06, 04:58 AM
Could be. I'm sure they'd love your racial profiling idea. Maybe to keep it straight we could require everyone with more than a quarter Arab blood wear a little cresent moon symbol on their clothes.
I'm sorry my words offend you. However I'd never institute such a patch on clothing. However, if I were a cop or had some security team under me, I wouldn't force any 59 year old women into such circumstances.
Let me know when a Sept 11th happens with 50+ year old white women, or hell, 30+ year old white, asian or black American men. Then we can start talking about illegally searching and seizing peoples personal property for fear of the common good.
NYC racially profiles in every subway where they have people at as well as airports(as of 1 month ago). Although they do claim otherwise, it is clear they ask certain people more questions than others. They never admit it, but they do it. I had a muslim friend in NYC last summer, and he got stopped at least 3 times a week going into Penn Station, and I told him sorry, but he met the profile, he understood, and then went on his way.
I don't want clothing symbols of race or culture. But when a group is predisposed to such actions, why make older women, children, or even men of a CLEARLY different race subject to search?
Just to be fair? What a load, just one more way for government to be in our lives, and telling us what to do. NRC you have AT&T or Verizon and get your phone records illegally searched? Something tells me 80% of the population did.
Facism isn't subject those predisposed to such actions into seizure situations, it is putting all of society under such actions, for the 'common good' of the people. Hitler sold a whole country under the common good. I'm conservative socially and economically, but I call b.s. when I see it. I don't appreciate government in my life, and I don't appreciate illegal searches and invasions of personal property.
ferrarigod
08-11-06, 05:14 AM
NRC feel free to move our posts over to the other discussion on this already. I hadn't noticed a previous thread detesting such idiocy.
devilmaster
08-11-06, 05:17 AM
Let me know when a Sept 11th happens with 50+ year old white women, or hell, 30+ year old white, asian or black American men. Then we can start talking about illegally searching and seizing peoples personal property for fear of the common good.
Up until 9/11 - the greatest terrorists in US history were Tim McVeigh and the 2 kids who did the Columbine massacre. I believe Tim was 32 when he committed the OK bombing (which was a sept 11th before sept 11th) - so that fits your 30+ white man.
The truth is Al Qaida, as a true group, is a pretty weak network right now. They are more or less ineffective and have been for some time. What one has to be on the lookout for is of the groups that believe in the Qaida way, yet have no official ties. You also have to be aware of bubba groups who believe that the government is Zog, and who commit acts of terror under their own banner, plus any other nutbar who wants to be a headline.
If you start racial profiling, you actions may incur the wrath of islamic people who already live peaceful lives in the US. Ask old Japanese about the internment camps, how they were treated, how they lost everything - even if they were born in the US.
i just heard on the radio a minute ago that 4 of the terrorists that were arrested in the UK yesterday were White.
Glenn Beck was talking about the same thing we are, how the terrorists would get around any racial profiling our security may do.
If you specifically leave WASPy pricks alone, they will hire disaffected white people and dress them up and teach them to act like WASPy pricks. Its a non-solution.
TKGAngel
08-11-06, 10:23 AM
If the terrorists on 9/11 were smart enough to not appear to be "dodgy arabs" you can rest assured that they would be smart enough not to use "dodgy white guys."
What it sounds like you're really talking about is racial profiling. That goes beyond just being politically incorrect, it violates the equal protection clause of the constitution. I'd rather keep the constitution in tact and suffer a little extra inconvenience in Airport security, thanks.
Word, nrc.
I don't mind getting my purse checked or metal-detectored at a sporting event (I do mind the fact that they take away the cap to my bottle of water so it doesn't become a projectile, thereby causing a massive spill when the 3-year old at the end of the row kicks it over on the way to the potty).
I dont mind thorough questioning at customs when I'm in my car on the way to Canada. If I've got nothing to hide, then its not a big deal.
The fact is, security checks are now the new normal. We all need to put on our big girl/boy underwear and deal with it.
TrueBrit
08-11-06, 10:40 AM
I have to depart from my liberal bretheren on this one. Frisking 84 yr old grandmas, or 9-month old kids is absolutely bloody stupid. These no-fly lists wouldn't even be useful as bog paper, and the thought that we are safer today than we were prior to 9/11 is bull.
We KNOW which ethnic group is largely responsible for terrorist attacks, we KNOW which religious groups these ethnicity's align with, why not focus attention on those dis-affected youths within that community and get to the source of the problem.
The reason that the British intelligence forces were able to thwart this plot was due to a tip from WITHIN that community. We need to encourage that reasonable, sensible, peace-loving majority to root out those that bring such shame and hatred into their religion and expose them for who they really are.
I am NOT a racist, I am NOT a bigot but there comes a time when you have to call it as it is.
Tifosi24
08-11-06, 10:51 AM
There have been a number of things instituted by this administration in this "war" on terror that I don't agree with, but racial profiling is not something that we base our whole anti-terror response. Are there times when a screener should use their judgement and question a suspicious individual because they meet some kind of profile, yes. But, you shouldn't go around everyday targeting one group because they look like a terrorist, it is effective in preventing some crime, but serves to create distrust and angst among these groups. My guess is that the terrorist groups will just start using, or indoctrinating, agents that don't meet the profile. At the end of the day, you are advocating racial profiling, which is unconstitutional, and there have been enough rights eroded in the past years that this isn't something I want our government to base our safety on. I could keep going but it would step into the bounds of political talk.
Classic Apex
08-11-06, 10:53 AM
The fact is, security checks are now the new normal. We all need to put on our big girl/boy underwear and deal with it.
Bullseye.
TrueBrit
08-11-06, 10:59 AM
There have been a number of things instituted by this administration in this "war" on terror that I don't agree with, but racial profiling is not something that we base our whole anti-terror response. Are there times when a screener should use their judgement and question a suspicious individual because they meet some kind of profile, yes. But, you shouldn't go around everyday targeting one group because they look like a terrorist, it is effective in preventing some crime, but serves to create distrust and angst among these groups. My guess is that the terrorist groups will just start using, or indoctrinating, agents that don't meet the profile. At the end of the day, you are advocating racial profiling, which is unconstitutional, and there have been enough rights eroded in the past years that this isn't something I want our government to base our safety on. I could keep going but it would step into the bounds of political talk.
I would just like this administration to focus on our safety rather then invading and occupying countries that have nothing to do with 9/11...and arresting 7 homeless youths in Miami doesn't quite cut the mustard....
The theory that these groups would then start indoctrinating those that don't fit the description to do their dirty work is based on the premise that you could persuade someone to adopt their extreme beliefs in a faith that is foreign to most....
Timothy McVeigh was an extremist that perceived a specific 'wrong' that had to be attacked, as the hi-jackers on 9/11, and those that have perpetrated other attacks against western nations perceived a specific 'wrong' that had to be attacked. The problem here is with extremists, be they white, brown, green or polka-dotted. Address THOSE issues, and you might be on the right track...
In the meantime, strip-searching grandmas and infants in the guise of 'safety' is a waste of time and energy...
i just heard on the radio a minute ago that 4 of the terrorists that were arrested in the UK yesterday were White.
Here (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/08/11/terror.suspects/index.html) is a list of 19 of the suspects arrested. Notice anything in common about the names?
devilmaster
08-11-06, 11:21 AM
Here (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/08/11/terror.suspects/index.html) is a list of 19 of the suspects arrested. Notice anything in common about the names?
Mohammed Ali.
Yusef Islam.
chop456
08-11-06, 11:37 AM
Mohammed Ali.
Yusef Islam.
Those are fake names, though. :D
Dr. Corkski
08-11-06, 11:41 AM
Glenn Beck was talking about the same thing we are, how the terrorists would get around any racial profiling our security may do.That is the point that supporters of racial profiling are completely ignoring. Forget the moral debate for the time being because such is thing is so impractical that it shouldn't even get to a point where morality should be discussed.
Most likely due a combination of selfishness, stupidity, ignorance, or even subconscious racism people actually think the terrorists are dumb simpletons that can easily caught by the genius security, in which case racial profiling might have a chance of working. Too bad in reality it's the other way around.
I think these discussions get side-tracked by the term 'racial'. IMO it has nothing to do with race but rather the common characteristics shared by the terrorists. If they all generally wore clown suits, I would expect the government to pay more attention to everyone wearing a clown suit.
This topic is walking the line of getting closed for being political to begin with. As a discussion of airport security it's fine. The civil rights topic treads the line. Any further discussion of "this Administration" and the topic will be closed.
The theory that these groups would then start indoctrinating those that don't fit the description to do their dirty work is based on the premise that you could persuade someone to adopt their extreme beliefs in a faith that is foreign to most....
In the new tactic they're adopting of assembling a bomb once they're onboard they don't need someone to adopt their beliefs. They just need to con someone into carrying the parts onto the plane for them. You don't think they can find a 50 or 60-something year old man or woman who would be smitten by a rich, handsome admirer willing to take them on a European vacation?
Terrorists are looking for any seam they can find in security. The notion that you can offer them one and they won't find a way to take advantage of it is just foolish.
RacinM3
08-11-06, 12:07 PM
Yee haw! Flying out tonight from John Wayne to Sacramento for a race at Thunder Hill. Sent all my luggage in the race trailer so I'm not checking bags and I'm just carrying on a couple of magazines (I'm sure that alone will make me some kind of suspect). Flight's at 9:05, so I gotta get there around 6:00 to 6:30. Three hours ahead of time. Flights an hour and a half, and by the time I get the rental it'll be 45 minutes after I land.
So let's see, 3 hrs + 1-1/2 hrs + 3/4 hrs = 5.25 hours.
It's only a 5-1/2 hour drive!
Insomniac
08-11-06, 12:09 PM
This guy has a point: http://www.goofigure.com/UserGoofigureDetail.asp?gooID=6258&
It's time to stop being politically correct and fight terrorists! Spend the time and money by questioning and checking people that fit the terrorist profiles (dodgy white guys as well) instead old ladies and 8 year-olds. :shakehead
Yes, we should be doing this because all Muslims/Arabs are terrorists. :rolleyes: I for one am glad when I see the TSA being thorough and concerned when I see they miss things.
However, it does seem stupid that you can't bring stuff on the plane that you obtained after the security check point. Security has already taken all of your drinks/liquids/paste. Anything you get after that should be fine. If it isn't, there are much larger security issues.
I think these discussions get side-tracked by the term 'racial'. IMO it has nothing to do with race but rather the common characteristics shared by the terrorists. If they all generally wore clown suits, I would expect the government to pay more attention to everyone wearing a clown suit.If the terrorists generally wore clown suits because they were clowns, what makes you think they're not smart enough to put on a business suit when they go to bomb an airliner?
How about Germaine Lindsay? Does he fit the profile?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4f/JamalLindsay.jpg
Insomniac
08-11-06, 12:13 PM
illegal patdowns at football games, illegal usage of phone records, and now this crap? did hitler and mussolini live and emmigrate to America?
To be clear, you're fine with other people having their rights violated (I presume you're neither Arab/Muslim) and don't like it when your rights are violated.
However, it does seem stupid that you can't bring stuff on the plane that you obtained after the security check point. Security has already taken all of your drinks/liquids/paste. Anything you get after that should be fine. If it isn't, there are much larger security issues.
I thought I heard yesterday that one of those arrested yesterday actually worked at the airport. That may be why, and yes it is a much larger security issue.
Here's the point and the ironic deal about my post. #1 I get stopped every time to the point that it's a continuous joke between my wife and I. I always get stopped and double checked. Every time. So, I'm arguing for something that will happen to me anyways.
Look, there is a limit amount of time and man power to find potential terrorist before a flight. 300 people going from London to LAX are not going to show up 5 hours before the flight leaves. Therefore, you have a limited amount of time to check passengers. Not to mention that there are flights leaving London every 2 minutes or so. Instead of checking 300 passengers half-a$$, yes half-a$$, why not check 50 or so potential suspect, Muslims and dodgy guys like me well enough to see if someone acts suspicious and cracks. Interviews, the whole nine-yards. If you took the 19 guys from the 9-11 deal and checked them individually in a cubicle type deal, do you really think all of the 19 would have past through security?
We all know Ferrari God's 59 year-old mother is not a terrorist. You know that she was very upset about what happened to her yesterday and I'm sure she did her fair share of complaining and asking questions. Arguing with a 59 year-old women is wasting precious time. Let alone making her go through extra security. I'm sure it was a 5 minute ordeal with one innocent lady. Meanwhile, a smart terrorist would throw away his bottled water, without complaining and breeze right through security with a 2 ounce container of bomb-making-potion in his mouth and the catalyst in his jock. Security isn’t going to notice that, are they? No, they’ll argue with a 59 year-old white lady about her lipstick. BRILLIANT!!!!!!!!!!!!
But, the constitution says you can’t have racial profiling. Well, what about the constitutional rights of the prisoners in Guantamanal Bay? None, because of war. We’ll we are in war against terrorism. End of story. Stop with the politically correct B.S and find these bastards, without busting everyone else’s balls!!!!!!!!!!!
BTW, do they check everyone's pockets. By actually putting their hands in there? If I have a chapstick in my pocket, would they notice it if I bring it through security? I doubt it. :rolleyes:
Insomniac
08-11-06, 12:17 PM
I'm sorry my words offend you. However I'd never institute such a patch on clothing. However, if I were a cop or had some security team under me, I wouldn't force any 59 year old women into such circumstances.
Let me know when a Sept 11th happens with 50+ year old white women, or hell, 30+ year old white, asian or black American men. Then we can start talking about illegally searching and seizing peoples personal property for fear of the common good.
NYC racially profiles in every subway where they have people at as well as airports(as of 1 month ago). Although they do claim otherwise, it is clear they ask certain people more questions than others. They never admit it, but they do it. I had a muslim friend in NYC last summer, and he got stopped at least 3 times a week going into Penn Station, and I told him sorry, but he met the profile, he understood, and then went on his way.
I don't want clothing symbols of race or culture. But when a group is predisposed to such actions, why make older women, children, or even men of a CLEARLY different race subject to search?
Just to be fair? What a load, just one more way for government to be in our lives, and telling us what to do. NRC you have AT&T or Verizon and get your phone records illegally searched? Something tells me 80% of the population did.
Facism isn't subject those predisposed to such actions into seizure situations, it is putting all of society under such actions, for the 'common good' of the people. Hitler sold a whole country under the common good. I'm conservative socially and economically, but I call b.s. when I see it. I don't appreciate government in my life, and I don't appreciate illegal searches and invasions of personal property.
So if you were a cop and you waved through the kids or grandmother that were carrying the liquids for the Muslim you spent so much time searching because he made sure to look Muslim/Arab and act "sketchy". How will you feel when 300 people are killed? Is that when we need to change the profile to include kids and grandmothers?
The government is ridiculous. How presumptive of them to try and make sure we aren't murdered by making us get to the airport 30 minutes earlier...
So if you were a cop and you waved through the kids or grandmother that were carrying the liquids for the Muslim you spent so much time searching because he made sure to look Muslim/Arab and act "sketchy". How will you feel when 300 people are killed? Is that when we need to change the profile to include kids and grandmothers?
The government is ridiculous. How presumptive of them to try and make sure we aren't murdered by making us get to the airport 30 minutes earlier...
Fair enough. But, how are you going to get grandmothers and kids to carry the liquids for the terrorists? How are you going to make an old lady not panic when security looks at her? :rolleyes: Come on man, people have to start using their heads a little. The terrorists are! :saywhat:
Like I said: Arguing with a 59 year-old women is wasting precious time.Meanwhile, a smart terrorist would throw away his bottle water, without complaining and breeze right through security with a 2 ounce container of bomb-making-potion in his mouth and the catalyst in his jock. Security isn’t going to notice that, are they? No, they’ll argue with a 59 year-old white lady about her lipstick. BRILLIANT!!!!!!!!!!!!
TrueBrit
08-11-06, 12:22 PM
In the new tactic they're adopting of assembling a bomb once they're onboard they don't need someone to adopt their beliefs. They just need to con someone into carrying the parts onto the plane for them. You don't think they can find a 50 or 60-something year old man or woman who would be smitten by a rich, handsome admirer willing to take them on a European vacation?
Terrorists are looking for any seam they can find in security. The notion that you can offer them one and they won't find a way to take advantage of it is just foolish.
What is the first set of questions we have all been asked everytime we fly for donkey's years? "Did you pack these bags yourself? Has anyone asked you to carry something for them?"
Of course that doesn't preclude someone from lying, but "rich, handsome admirer"...have you seen what these guys look like? Not quite in either of those categories.... :D
Insomniac
08-11-06, 12:24 PM
I thought I heard yesterday that one of those arrested yesterday actually worked at the airport. That may be why, and yes it is a much larger security issue.
If that's the case, then liquids are the least of their problems. (Assuming that person works in a position where things like that could get by and then passed on to people who've passed through security)
We all know Ferrari God's 59 year-old mother is not a terrorist.
Sorry, I can't vouch for anyone else's mom. I want her subject to all the same security rules as everyone else. I don't know that her makeup case wasn't a gift from her new boyfriend, Rashid.
TrueBrit
08-11-06, 12:24 PM
If that's the case, then liquids are the least of their problems. (Assuming that person works in a position where things like that could get by and then passed on to people who've passed through security)
No kidding!!!
TrueBrit
08-11-06, 12:27 PM
If the terrorists generally wore clown suits because they were clowns, what makes you think they're not smart enough to put on a business suit when they go to bomb an airliner?
How about Germaine Lindsay? Does he fit the profile?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4f/JamalLindsay.jpg
Ummm, yes he does, converted to Islam and changed his name, rejected all of his old friends and old habits and became totally immersed in Islam.
Insomniac
08-11-06, 12:32 PM
Fair enough. But, how are you going to get grandmothers and kids to carry the liquids for the terrorists? How are you going to make an old lady not panic when security looks at her? :rolleyes: Come on man, people have to start using their heads a little. The terrorists are! :saywhat:
Like I said: Arguing with a 59 year-old women is wasting precious time.Meanwhile, a smart terrorist would throw away his bottle water, without complaining and breeze right through security with a 2 ounce container of bomb-making-potion in his mouth and the catalyst in his jock. Security isn’t going to notice that, are they? No, they’ll argue with a 59 year-old white lady about her lipstick. BRILLIANT!!!!!!!!!!!!
nrc gave an excellent example. Extending it some, a terrorist befriends some white english single mother. What do they care what happens to them. Offers to take them on vacation and asks them to carry some drinks in their carry on. They all get by with everything they need to blow up a plane.
And you know what, since 9/11 there has not been a single terrorist attack (Edit--To be clear, I mean to/on a plane that would require you to go through security in the US). Say what you will about the administration (and I say plenty) they have kept the skies safe for almost 5 years now. By not profiling, the terrorists have to find other ways to get by security. (And when they do, we have to adjust security to prevent that.) By profiling, you make it easier to find a way past. You're publicizing your weakness in security. I know there are more inconveniences now, but me personally, I'm glad I make it to where I'm going alive.
How about Germaine Lindsay? Does he fit the profile?
Yes, young muslim male. (and no clown suit :p )
I actually believe the TSA IS looking more closely at young middle eastern men. The random checks of grandma and the kids, IMO, is to prevent charges of racial profiling. Seems a waste but they probably have to do it.
Insomniac
08-11-06, 12:33 PM
Ummm, yes he does, converted to Islam and changed his name, rejected all of his old friends and old habits and became totally immersed in Islam.
How would a guy at a security checkpoint know all that?
TrueBrit
08-11-06, 12:46 PM
How would a guy at a security checkpoint know all that?
He wouldn't, intel should have done the job for him.....
Of course that doesn't preclude someone from lying, but "rich, handsome admirer"...have you seen what these guys look like? Not quite in either of those categories.... :D
Terrorist backers paid to support the 9/11 terrorists for years prior to their attacks. There's no reason they couldn't have been made to appear rich to a mark they were setting up to help them. Are you saying that there are no handsome muslims?
nrc gave an excellent example. Extending it some, a terrorist befriends some white english single mother. What do they care what happens to them. Offers to take them on vacation and asks them to carry some drinks in their carry on. They all get by with everything they need to blow up a plane.
Ok, but shouldn't the time be spent interviewing middle-eastern men instead? Like I said you only have a curtain amount of time. If Mohamed whatever is flying with Lisa Smith from Ohio, then Lisa Smith from Ohio is also questioned. Sepperately! ;)
Time is of the essences, man. :shakehead Wasting time with Ferrari God's mother is stupid!
And, no one answered these questions: How is Ali Whatever being prevented from passing through security with a 2 ounce container in his mouth and the catalyst in his jock?
Are they going to check my pockets? They aren’t going to stick their hands in my pockets. You know what, I wish I was flying this weekend. I'd get through security with all kind of stuff. I'm sure they won't notice my chapstick in my pocket :laugh:
TrueBrit
08-11-06, 01:08 PM
Are you saying that there are no handsome muslims?
Not amongst the ones that have killed themselves so far.....
Dr. Corkski
08-11-06, 01:09 PM
The hilarity of all this discussion is that racial profiling alone would have had zero affect on the outcome of the plot they just busted.
Which brings us to the question that no one has gotten close to answering: How exactly would racial profiling stop an attack?
TrueBrit
08-11-06, 01:19 PM
The hilarity of all this discussion is that racial profiling alone would have had zero affect on the outcome of the plot they just busted.
Which brings us to the question that no one has gotten close to answering: How exactly would racial profiling stop an attack?
I'm sorry but how do you come to that conclusion? The reason that the plot was uncovered was because of a tip from someone that said one of his Muslim mates was a bit loopy....If someone had tipped off the coppers that one of his canasta-playing partners was acting a bit weird would they have bothered to follow-up? Probably not.
The hilarity of all this discussion is that racial profiling alone would have had zero affect on the outcome of the plot they just busted. What are you talking about, they were all 25 year-old or so middle eastern males. :rolleyes: There was not a list of 10 middle eastern males, 1 chinese, a south korean, 2 frenchman, a ukranian, 2 el salvadorians, a lady from ghana and an american 59 year-old women. :shakehead
Which brings us to the question that no one has gotten close to answering: How exactly would racial profiling stop an attack?
Easy. The 19 arrested would be individually questioned and searched when they attempted to board their flights. That is if all of them made it far enough to get their visas in check. Don't you think they would have noticed some hazardous liquid on one of them? Security open containers before yesterday. Don't you think one of these guys would have panicked? The Mahamed Atta would get through, but the bottom guy, would be sweating bullets. If you catch one guy with something fishy on a flight, you stop that flight. You see when he bought the ticket, who he is flying with, etc, etc. They would find his friends. Like I said if the 19 guys from 9-11 were questioned and searched, I'm sure all 4 planes would not have been hijacked. There is no way that you can get 19 guys like that not to panic!
I have to chime in. We need racial profiling AND random grandma checks until we can SCREEN EVERYBODY! We need those 'splosive-sniffing gates, dogs, x-rays, maybe even the Israeli-style exit/entry interviews. For everyone. We ain't safe until that happens. (still not 100%, of course)
A few points: Millions of Muslims, some of them radical, look exactly like Germain. They live in Africa. i hired one. Millions of Muslims, some of them radical, live in Asia. I'm sending some of my staff over to an Asian Muslim country tonight. Two (close!) co-workers are from this one particular country. Millions (?) of Muslims, some of them radical, are Indian. I know one very well. His kids babysit the g.'s. Millions (?) of Muslims, some of them radical are Philipino. There's even a war-type thing going on there. Need I go on?
Who you gonna profile? (BTW, I firmly expected the next attack to come from native Indonesians, guess I was wrong on that one. But they have already done some attacks against Westerners.)
What if rather light-skinned Lebonese man boards a plane under the name of Bobby Rahalini? With evil intent. Oooops.
I am a scrawny white guy, Christian by upbringing, with too many kids ;) . So, let's suppose that the "silicon chip inside my head, is switched to overload" (oooohhh, ohhhh ohhh). I'm an enginerd. I could prolly figure out a simple timing/deton. device, right? OK, I'm (pretending to be) really bat**** right now. Evil intentions abound. Synapses ain't working right. Trip with wheelchair-bound mama, kid with really poopy diaper, much struggle to get onto plane, security rushes us through, diaper has c4 in it, cellphone altered, etc., etc., etc.
Does it make you feel better that I don't fit the profile?
Until we can efficiently screen EVERYONE, we gotta do what we gotta do. Absurdities are plentiful, but we live in an absurd world.
(note to the CIA, NSA, etc. I have just outlined a totally made up scenario, and this is a fanciful drama with no bearing in reality. Go USA!) ;)
All that said, I DO believe that we need to pay extra attention to those from known terra ist ethnicities and States.
Gangrel
08-11-06, 01:37 PM
:thumbup:
Richard Reid didn't match the profile of an Islamic terrorist either.
Nor was Jose Padilla, nor Timothy McVeigh, nor Terry Nichols....they need not even be Islamic. Whacko militamen or other radical groups could easily take advantage of profiling for mideastern terrorists and walk past security unnoticed. Tread carefully on those waters...
Nor was Jose Padilla, nor Timothy McVeigh, nor Terry Nichols....they need not even be Islamic. Whacko militamen or other radical groups could easily take advantage of profiling for mideastern terrorists and walk past security unnoticed. Tread carefully on those waters...
Fair enough, but how many of those guys were suicide bombers? It's one thing to blow up a plane, but another thing to do it knowing that you are blowing yourself up as well. And, how many of those guys targeted airplanes?What about banks, super markets, or a Home Depot? When are we going to draw the line, man?
Imagine this. You have all this extra security, code red, the whole 9 and these guys still blow up a plane. What would that do to the world? :confused:
They made a mistake making it public IMO and doing all this B.S with the liquid. They should have just started racial profiling and said nothing to nobody. Because, if these guys manage to blow a plane up now, the world as we know it is over! It would be mass panic. 9-11 no one expected it, no one did anything to prevent it. But, if it happens when everyone is looking for it, man that would be like 100 9-11's! All you are doing with this B.S is putting them back in the news and putting fear back in people's heads. As I see it, these guys have won this round. They are doing what they wanted, upsetting the western way of living.......
Insomniac
08-11-06, 01:52 PM
Ok, but shouldn't the time be spent interviewing middle-eastern men instead? Like I said you only have a curtain amount of time. If Mohamed whatever is flying with Lisa Smith from Ohio, then Lisa Smith from Ohio is also questioned. Sepperately! ;)
Time is of the essences, man. :shakehead Wasting time with Ferrari God's mother is stupid!
And, no one answered these questions: How is Ali Whatever being prevented from passing through security with a 2 ounce container in his mouth and the catalyst in his jock?
Are they going to check my pockets? They aren’t going to stick their hands in my pockets. You know what, I wish I was flying this weekend. I'd get through security with all kind of stuff. I'm sure they won't notice my chapstick in my pocket :laugh:
Short of checking everyone, I guess it comes down to what you believe. You want to leave it to human judgement to determine who is and isn't a threat and check them more closely while others who are deemed to not be a threat are allowed through.
I believe knowing that, terrorists will focus on how they can be the ones who aren't scrutinized. Right now, you may or may not be scrutinized more. You don't know. And if your plan counts on none of you getting caught trying to get past security, you're less likely to take that risk. Terrorists have yet to try a shotgun approach to get by security.
You are saying that given the recent history, there is a very high likelyhood the terrorist is Muslim/Arab. And when you do that, you give the terrorists some good odds too. Now they know, if they don't fit certain criteria, they're very likely to get past security. It works both ways. By keeping it random, no one knows if they can get past security without additional scrutinizing until they actually get by security.
Also, to be clear about ferrarigod's mother, she had trouble yesterday because she had items that were not allowed past security and should've been checked. I blame the airlines for not getting her the message so she could check those items. It had nothing to do with her age or a profile. No one was or is allowed to bring those items past security. Everyone would have been asked to throw those same items out.
Dr. Corkski
08-11-06, 01:59 PM
What are you talking about, they were all 25 year-old or so middle eastern males. :rolleyes: There was not a list of 10 middle eastern males, 1 chinese, a south korean, 2 frenchman, a ukranian, 2 el salvadorians, a lady from ghana and an american 59 year-old women. :shakeheadExcept without prior knowledge of the planning, it would have done nothing because none of them were carrying anything that would detonate by itself.
Easy. The 19 arrested would be individually questioned and searched when they attempted to board their flights. That is if all of them made it far enough to get their visas in check. Don't you think they would have noticed some hazardous liquid on one of them? Security open containers before yesterday. Don't you think one of these guys would have panicked? The Mahamed Atta would get through, but the bottom guy, would be sweating bullets. If you catch one guy with something fishy on a flight, you stop that flight. You see when he bought the ticket, who he is flying with, etc, etc. They would find his friends. Like I said if the 19 guys from 9-11 were questioned and searched, I'm sure all 4 planes would not have been hijacked. There is no way that you can get 19 guys like that not to panic!It's only easy if you have complete knowledge what the terrorists are capable of on a plane. Security would never be able to do that.
Insomniac
08-11-06, 02:03 PM
Fair enough, but how many of those guys were suicide bombers? It's one thing to blow up a plane, but another thing to do it knowing that you are blowing yourself up as well. And, how many of those guys targeted airplanes?What about banks, super markets, or a Home Depot? When are we going to draw the line, man?
Imagine this. You have all this extra security, code red, the whole 9 and these guys still blow up a plane. What would that do to the world? :confused:
They made a mistake making it public IMO and doing all this B.S with the liquid. They should have just started racial profiling and said nothing to nobody. Because, if these guys manage to blow a plane up now, the world as we know it is over! It would be mass panic. 9-11 no one expected it, no one did anything to prevent it. But, if it happens when everyone is looking for it, man that would be like 100 9-11's! All you are doing with this B.S is putting them back in the news and putting fear back in people's heads. As I see it, these guys have won this round. They are doing what they wanted, upsetting the western way of living.......
Just because you don't blow yourself up doesn't mean you're not willing too. Do you think Tim McVeigh wasn't willing to blow himself up? How many people have you seen ask to not have any appeals and be executed?
The US banning all liquids from planes is a step to prevent what was just uncovered from happening. If it happens somewhere else where they chose not to prevent people from boarding planes with liquid, I doubt there will be mass panic here.
If you want to say the terrorists arw winning, that is fine. It's the world we live in now and the alternative is more dead civilians, which is an even greater victory for terrorists.
TrueBrit
08-11-06, 02:04 PM
There are two simple solutions to this problem...
1) Fly naked (uugh).
2) TSA immediately and henceforth bans all humans on flights because humans have been known to blow-up/ hi-jack planes.
Insomniac you are 100% correct if time wasn't an issue. But it is. No one is going to show up the night before for a 10 a.m flight. The way I see it, chaos lets people get away with stuff. Some 11 year-old kid making a sceen is just was Ali whatever needs to sneak by without anyone noticing. Especially when most of the security were clerks at McDonalds before this gig. You can do random checks, like the ones I always seem to get stopped for and the racial profiling. The rest, eveyone goes through the normal security. Then maybe have some under cover guys walking around looking at people and there actions. Then have random security when people are waiting at the gates. The odds are that a terrorist is still going to get his stuff through if security is a complete cluster f***. And, from what I hear it is now. Spend the time and effort questioning the 25 year-old middle eastern men, myself and anyone else who looks wacky and leave Ferrari God's 59 year-old mom alone!
coolhand
08-11-06, 02:04 PM
The straw man argument of Mcveigh et. al. is a joke.
They fit the typical wacko White Millitant profile and they are small in numbers. I am sure they are being monitored.
Most Islamic terrorist fit an obvious profile from either looks or their culture.
The unibomber is totlly different, no one said that profiling will stop everyone but it will deter alot. But what needs to stop is screening an old bag of bones grandma and then letting a middle eastern man through just so he "feels better". Make this process painful for all the islamist until the realize they need to take a more active role in cleaning up their own communities that are a threat to everyone.
anyway i am flying today and i will see how it goes.
coolhand
08-11-06, 02:06 PM
http://www.scrappleface.com/?p=2306
TrueBrit
08-11-06, 02:09 PM
Just because you don't blow yourself up doesn't mean you're not willing too. Do you think Tim McVeigh wasn't willing to blow himself up? How many people have you seen ask to not have any appeals and be executed?
I have absolutely no doubt that he would have been unwilling to blow himself up. Chickensht's like him lack the RELIGIOUS conviction to do it...The whole point of these nutters is that there is some sort of eternal reward for doing yourself in....McVeigh had no such conviction, just a sick and twisted hatred...
I have seen enough to know why he requested no appeals and a quick execution....would YOU want to spend the rest of your life in lock-up getting the ever-loving crap beaten out of you day after day after day?
TrueBrit
08-11-06, 02:10 PM
Mohammed Ali.
He's also a pace bowler for Middlesex County Cricket Club.... :)
well, I got to fly back in the wonderful mess that was yesterday... It was actually smoooooooooth at LGA but EWR was a mongolian cluterf***, only problem was all the sheeple rushing to the airport hours beforehand and flying standby on earlier flights and then overcrowding what was supposedly to be a relatively spacious flight for me :mad: f sheeple. and f smelly overweight Lee Hotti mfrs with bad breath, bad chin stripes, and bad music on their ipod turned up way too loudly.
airport security should be screening people's body odor & music taste.
Profiling won't solve a thing. Believing that is sticking your head in the sand for your own convenience.
How can anyone think they would be too stupid to exploit the 59 year old grandma exception? Ferrarigod, you and your mother can both deal with it. It's the legal way things are done. If it inconveniences you, oh well (It's not like you can't check the makeup at the counter, and makeup isn't some life sustaining product a person requires unfettered access to 100% of the time). It's not like they all grew up as bedouins riding camels during their childhood. Many have fine western educations even from respected private schools. I think their problem solving & analytical faculties are more than a match for the "we screen all the Ali's, brown guys, and 20-40 yo males from now on, no one else" proposition.
I don't want 2 year olds walking through 100% of the time and one end up having something stuffed in its diaper. Or an old lady walking through 100% of the time with some "trinket" she just happened to recently purchase.
Well they're all loony muslims you say. Are we going to set up some national muslim database? Track them all like mice? Implant RF-ID's in everyone so we can readily scan everyone at the airport and discern FoF? What happens when they start hiding their religious association as a result? What happens when they start attending the Highland Park United Methodist Church to keep up appearances? Jesus was a prophet as well, it's not sacriligious for them to enter a church.
Now we begin tracking their names, well, they can change their names, so do we keep some international name changing database and cross reference it with our new fancy Islamo-Tracker 5000? Is an airport screener going to have access to this 6.5 billion person database at a moment's notice? What happens when they take the name of someone else on the "clean" list with simliar biometrics, and then doctors that person's passport?
The govt has already run a background check on me, they're still hassling me at the airport as they should. I'm not having a hissy fit. Furthermore, when's the last time a Patel suicided anything? *shrug* Everyone else can deal.
And as nrc said, it's unconstitutional. Constitution > personal convenience.
oddlycalm
08-11-06, 02:35 PM
smelly overweight Lee Hotti mfrs with bad breath, bad chin stripes, and bad music on their ipod turned up way too loudly.
airport security should be screening people's body odor & music taste. Now we're getting somewhere. Everyone is obsessed with safety but meanwhile the chronically annoying and obese are getting a free pass. :thumbup: :D
Airport 2006; what the Greyhound bus station used to be and more. :shakehead
oc
Insomniac
08-11-06, 02:37 PM
The straw man argument of Mcveigh et. al. is a joke.
They fit the typical wacko White Millitant profile and they are small in numbers. I am sure they are being monitored.
And you don't think the number of terrorists out of 1 billion+ Muslims is small?
Insomniac
08-11-06, 02:47 PM
I have absolutely no doubt that he would have been unwilling to blow himself up. Chickensht's like him lack the RELIGIOUS conviction to do it...The whole point of these nutters is that there is some sort of eternal reward for doing yourself in....McVeigh had no such conviction, just a sick and twisted hatred...
I have seen enough to know why he requested no appeals and a quick execution....would YOU want to spend the rest of your life in lock-up getting the ever-loving crap beaten out of you day after day after day?
You think it's all about martyrdom/72 virgins? You can blame it on religious fanaticism, but they believe in what they are trying to do. Because McVeigh didn't do it in the name of Jesus, doesn't mean he didn't believe in dying to accomplish blowing up the federal building. There was no suicide bomber in the first WTC bombing. Do you think Ramzi Yousef was scared to die?
Insomniac
08-11-06, 02:54 PM
Insomniac you are 100% correct if time wasn't an issue. But it is. No one is going to show up the night before for a 10 a.m flight. The way I see it, chaos lets people get away with stuff. Some 11 year-old kid making a sceen is just was Ali whatever needs to sneak by without anyone noticing. Especially when most of the security were clerks at McDonalds before this gig. You can do random checks, like the ones I always seem to get stopped for and the racial profiling. The rest, eveyone goes through the normal security. Then maybe have some under cover guys walking around looking at people and there actions. Then have random security when people are waiting at the gates. The odds are that a terrorist is still going to get his stuff through if security is a complete cluster f***. And, from what I hear it is now. Spend the time and effort questioning the 25 year-old middle eastern men, myself and anyone else who looks wacky and leave Ferrari God's 59 year-old mom alone!
Even if you're racial profiling, how does that stop Ali whatever from sneaking by as you suggested? It will ensure that all kids will get by. You talk about young Middle Eastern men, did you see the ages of most of those on the bank list? Almost half weren't over 25 and one was 17.
TrueBrit
08-11-06, 02:59 PM
You think it's all about martyrdom/72 virgins? You can blame it on religious fanaticism, but they believe in what they are trying to do. Because McVeigh didn't do it in the name of Jesus, doesn't mean he didn't believe in dying to accomplish blowing up the federal building. There was no suicide bomber in the first WTC bombing. Do you think Ramzi Yousef was scared to die?
I think the fact that McVeigh ran away after parking his van is a pretty good indicator that he didn't want to die....
You talk about young Middle Eastern men, did you see the ages of most of those on the bank list? Almost half weren't over 25 and one was 17.
Exactly! They were ALL Middle Eastern Males, the young ones are the worst. Start Racial profiling and end this politically correctness B.S! :thumbup:
Insomniac
08-11-06, 03:06 PM
I think the fact that McVeigh ran away after parking his van is a pretty good indicator that he didn't want to die....
There's a difference between willing to die and not needing to die. If terrorists could remotely fly planes into buildings, they wouldn't be hijacking them and flying them themselves. Doesn't mean they aren't willing to die.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.