View Full Version : Crazy idea, why not cover the cockpit?
Over the years there have been great improvements in the driver's compartment in formula cars; side impact has improved greatly, the position of the driver's feet is further away and better protected, etc, etc. But, the driver's head is still basically exposed as it were in the 70's and 80's (before then the whole upper body was basically exposed). Why not design formula cars like jets, and have a plexi-glass cover that fits over the helmet?
Laugh all you want, but if this deal was around in 1994, Senna would still be around. I'm actually amazed that there aren't more accidents were a driver gets hit in the head by flying debris, especially on an oval. In the early 90's a young up-and-coming Mexican driver was killed in a F3 or F2 car when he had a minor off and a rock hit his head. And, in the early 80's a F2 driver died when he ran off the road and a wooden fence pole hit his head. :shakehead
indyfan31
08-04-06, 02:41 AM
Nothing to laugh at, but a plexiglass bubble wouldn't have stopped a suspension piece from coming through. For that matter it wouldn't have stopped a deer either.
coolhand
08-04-06, 02:56 AM
Nothing to laugh at, but a plexiglass bubble wouldn't have stopped a suspension piece from coming through. For that matter it wouldn't have stopped a deer either.
But the rounded glass plus Helmet might.
Nothing to laugh at, but a plexiglass bubble wouldn't have stopped a suspension piece from coming through. For that matter it wouldn't have stopped a deer either.
And you know that, HOW?
My point is that every safety precaution should be taken, but tests should be done to see if a canopy would work.
Last April, I lost a good friend of mine, a boat racer, who had a canopy, to a racing accident. Canopies are not the end all save all. Ask Mike Neuharth's survivors. The motor came thru the back of the capsule, and it was not the capsules fault.
All that to say accidents happen.
theunions
08-04-06, 03:05 AM
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/651/848/1600/1955%20Sumar%20Special%20Blackand%20White1.jpg
(Fixed the URL)
http://www.angelfire.com/in4/jimmydaywalt/1955%20Sumar%20Streamliner%20c.jpg
Did you have something to say?
Chitowncartfreak
08-04-06, 06:26 AM
Actually, this is something that Emerson Fittipaldi pushed for back in the early 1990's. He thought it was something Champ Car should pursue.
Insomniac
08-04-06, 07:31 AM
Would that then decrease the driver's ability to get out of the car, or for the safety team to get to the driver? Could it get stuck/jammed from damage? I can agree that having something there to slow any type of projectile would seem to be beneficial vs. taking a direct hit. You could be helping in one area, but you might be hurting in others.
rjohnson999
08-04-06, 08:30 AM
It's been a while since this came up. It seems to make the rounds every time there's a nasty cockpit intrusion incident. The short response is; open cockpits are as much a part of the definition of these cars as the lack of fenders. Those who think the drivers should be fully enclosed are already watching NASCAR and GrandAm.
Over the years there have been great improvements in the driver's compartment in formula cars; side impact has improved greatly, the position of the driver's feet is further away and better protected, etc, etc. But, the driver's head is still basically exposed as it were in the 70's and 80's (before then the whole upper body was basically exposed). Why not design formula cars like jets, and have a plexi-glass cover that fits over the helmet?
It's been a while since this came up. It seems to make the rounds every time there's a nasty cockpit intrusion incident. The short response is; open cockpits are as much a part of the definition of these cars as the lack of fenders. Those who think the drivers should be fully enclosed are already watching NASCAR and GrandAm.
I'm sure that's what people said in the 50's about wearing helmets and seat belts.
Formula cars/ open wheel cars can still be formula/ open wheel with a canopy.
jonovision_man
08-04-06, 09:23 AM
The short response is; open cockpits are as much a part of the definition of these cars as the lack of fenders. Those who think the drivers should be fully enclosed are already watching NASCAR and GrandAm.
Agreed. :thumbup:
jono
Tifosi24
08-04-06, 09:53 AM
Would that then decrease the driver's ability to get out of the car, or for the safety team to get to the driver? Could it get stuck/jammed from damage? I can agree that having something there to slow any type of projectile would seem to be beneficial vs. taking a direct hit. You could be helping in one area, but you might be hurting in others.
You could possible have some type of explosive bolt system on the canopy that they use on fighter jets. So, if there is an accident and the driver needs to get out quickly they could press a button or pull a lever that would blow the canopy. One concern that comes to my mind would be a serious increase in cockpit temperatures, but I imagine that could be added with a ventiliation adjustment. I wouldn't say that those people who want canopies are already watching Tin Tops, you would still be able to see the driver and the cars would look essentially the same.
Robstar
08-04-06, 10:10 AM
It's been a while since this came up. It seems to make the rounds every time there's a nasty cockpit intrusion incident. The short response is; open cockpits are as much a part of the definition of these cars as the lack of fenders. Those who think the drivers should be fully enclosed are already watching NASCAR and GrandAm.
Best. call. ever... :thumbup: :thumbup:
ChampcarShark
08-04-06, 10:17 AM
A canopy is a good idea, but while it increases safety from foreign objects thrown into the cockpit it also greatly increases the risk of fire accidents and smoke inhalation for the driver.
devilmaster
08-04-06, 10:27 AM
I think I have to agree with the people above who said that the canopy may bring more questions than answers.
How many major accidents have their been with cockpit intrusion? How many of them could have been much much worse with a canopy? A canopy puts an object 360 degrees around the head of a driver.
I would submit that Seabass at Cleveland would have been worse, because Tracy's car would have come down on a canopy then the canopy would have crushed on top of seabass's head. What if a canopy fails when a car is on fire?
You can't use explosive bolts, because of 2 reasons, IMO. The canopy of a car would be much smaller than a jet fighter. You have explosives too close to the head of a driver, and too close to safety workers who need to get to the driver.
In the end, any safety innovation may stop one type of accident from happening, but may contribute to another.
Mike Kellner
08-04-06, 01:19 PM
I think it is an idea worth investigating. JMO, but I think it would make an overall improvement in saftey.
Fire is not a big issue these days, and an improved fire supression system could offset the additional risk.
I do see a risk that a driver could be trapped in an overturned car, but they are not too easy to get out of anyway.
I do think the cars would require air conditioning or forced ventilation for when the car was stationary.
FWIW: The cars would look very fast and modern.
mk
Ejection seat and the need for a j button on the steering wheel to deploy large sweeping circular saw blades like on the MachV would be another answer as well.
Holy cow what a revalation is the bubble top going to have a parascope as well for all the underwater driving excersions that could happen? :gomer:
And the mechanical homing pigeon could be used to dispatch a call for help to the corner workers.
:p :gomer: :rofl:
cameraman
08-04-06, 01:52 PM
The car would end up looking like an anorexic daytona prototype.
No thanks.
Maybe somebody could invent a combo meat, carbon fiber and concrete magnet.
Then they could mount it in a manner that would create a opposite polarity type thingy and just push the objects out of the way with magnet power.
Shazaaam, blam, deflecsham! :thumbsup:
We don't know that PT's car would crush a canopy made of the right material and/or laminate style construction, nor that Senna's suspension piece would've definitely pierced it.
I agree with Kellner, it could be investigated, as with everything there would be trade-offs, but I'm not so sure that the issue of canopy release and safety couldn't be addressed to some degree, perhaps even to a very satisfactory level.
There could be a way to just slide it onto certain mountain hardwire without bolting it on ala the nose/frong wing assembly.
Laughing it off as "not part of a formula car" is almost on the same level as gomers pining for Offy's and such, it's not like wings or even sidepods were ever a part of formula cars in the 50's either.
I dont' see where the smoke issue comes from with the engine bolting to the back of the tub as a seperate unit.
It would be really ****ing weird though, that's for sure...
indyfan31
08-04-06, 05:14 PM
And you know that, HOW?
Because it's just plastic that happens to be clear. If you make it thick enough to stop a projectile then it's optic properties go in the toilet and start to produce distortion, reflections and glare.
We don't know that PT's car would crush a canopy made of the right material and/or laminate style construction, nor that Senna's suspension piece would've definitely pierced it.
I agree with Kellner, it could be investigated, as with everything there would be trade-offs, but I'm not so sure that the issue of canopy release and safety couldn't be addressed to some degree, perhaps even to a very satisfactory level.
There could be a way to just slide it onto certain mountain hardwire without bolting it on ala the nose/frong wing assembly.
Laughing it off as "not part of a formula car" is almost on the same level as gomers pining for Offy's and such, it's not like wings or even sidepods were ever a part of formula cars in the 50's either.
I dont' see where the smoke issue comes from with the engine bolting to the back of the tub as a seperate unit.
It would be really ****ing weird though, that's for sure... :thumbup:
I've always been open to this idea - if it would truly be safer. I agree with others that ease of extraction would probably be the main issue.
I've never followed these types of cars because they're open-wheel, or open-cockpit, but rather that they're the fastest cars running closed courses. To me, to fixate on open-wheel or open-cockpit is like fixating on front-engine designs. IMHO, if something better comes along, change it. Or someone else will change it and eat your lunch.
Crap, I guess I gotta jump into this fray. :gomer:
Doesn't have to be a 360, hemispherical canopy, enclosed, expolsive, jetpack ejection seat, whatever.
Just a clear semicircle thing a foot in front of the cockpit opening, curved up to about the opening. Easy exit, no explosive bolts ( :shakehead ) needed, ventilation friendly, and, oh, yeah, buttugly to boot, but if it helps deflect...
I'm just sayin'.
Also, indyfan31 sez:
Because it's just plastic that happens to be clear. If you make it thick enough to stop a projectile then it's optic properties go in the toilet and start to produce distortion, reflections and glare.
Um, they make airplanes, don't they?
Big problem, besides ugliness extreme, is no tear-offs for when Speedy Dan blows a gearbox in front of you. That is actually a REAL safety hazard.
God, why, oh, WHY, did I jump into this?
(Turn7, yer cracking me up!)
datachicane
08-04-06, 07:09 PM
Easy exit, no explosive bolts ( :shakehead ) needed, ventilation friendly, and, oh, yeah, buttugly to boot, but if it helps deflect...
I'm just sayin'.
Just bolt an hdolan post from his non-racing forum up there.
:rofl:
chop456
08-04-06, 07:52 PM
Crazy idea,
'Nuff said.
Hardpoint
08-04-06, 08:13 PM
Has anyone seen Franklin Ratliff ????? :D
Open cockpit / Open Wheel. It's inherently dangerous but that's what separates it from other forms of motor sport.
indyfan31
08-05-06, 03:08 AM
Um, they make airplanes, don't they?
Yes, but commercial planes have a big honkin' frame around the window and fighters with a "bubble" style canopy cost hundreds of millions of dollars. I don't think anyone's prepared to pay as much for the canopy as the rest of the car.
God, why, oh, WHY, did I jump into this?
'Cause you love it dood!!! :laugh:
It has been done once before on a open-wheeler, but for aero reasons, not safety.
Ron Harris Racing Team Protos-Cosworth P16 (F2) (http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/con-proto.html)
http://www.gpracing.net192.com/cars/images/protos.jpg
jonovision_man
08-06-06, 07:23 AM
The car would end up looking like an anorexic daytona prototype.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
jono
Wouldn't that F up airflow over the rear wing and take away downforce, making the car loose?
EDwardo
08-06-06, 05:27 PM
Something like this?
http://www.viridianrepository.com/images/electricfiend.jpg
:laugh:
Tifosi24
08-06-06, 05:44 PM
Just a clear semicircle thing a foot in front of the cockpit opening, curved up to about the opening. Easy exit, no explosive bolts ( :shakehead ) needed, ventilation friendly, and, oh, yeah, buttugly to boot, but if it helps deflect...
...Big problem, besides ugliness extreme, is no tear-offs for when Speedy Dan blows a gearbox in front of you. That is actually a REAL safety hazard.
Shake your head all you want. Someone was concerned about extracation and I came up with a possible solution to this problem. If you don't agree with an idea that someone makes it is much easier to say that you disagree with it and give a reason, not just put in a worthless emoticon. Some of the sports car fans in here can correct me, but if I remember my legends of motorsports Porsche special one of their prototypes from the 1960s were able to operate without a windshield wiper.
At the end of the day, I am gonna go with Ank's optimism on this topic, because, you should never reject a suggestion or idea as worthless until it is tested.
Jayblues
08-06-06, 06:34 PM
Shake your head all you want. Someone was concerned about extracation and I came up with a possible solution to this problem. If you don't agree with an idea that someone makes it is much easier to say that you disagree with it and give a reason, not just put in a worthless emoticon. Some of the sports car fans in here can correct me, but if I remember my legends of motorsports Porsche special one of their prototypes from the 1960s were able to operate without a windshield wiper.
At the end of the day, I am gonna go with Ank's optimism on this topic, because, you should never reject a suggestion or idea as worthless until it is tested.
how would have this related to the crash that killed Greg Moore? Didnt the impact of the barrier basically get fully loaded via the open cockpit? I assume the impact was so great that some type of cover would not have made any difference?
now I think i will have to go look at the legacy of spirit book again since it got me thinking about him.
nissan gtp
08-06-06, 07:32 PM
I agree that it's worth consideration. The car could look good with an F16 style canopy, but as mentioned above lots of other issues would come up -- ventalation, fogging esp in rain, safety in collisions esp upside down stuff.
something along the lines of the allard J2x -- open wheel of course
http://www.toadhallracing.com/allard%20006.jpg
I agree that it's worth consideration. The car could look good with an F16 style canopy, but as mentioned above lots of other issues would come up -- ventalation, fogging esp in rain, safety in collisions esp upside down stuff.
Nah, just give 'em a defroster, AC, and don't fergit the cupholders. ;)
-Kevin
Cerbera LM
08-06-06, 09:03 PM
A direct hit is a direct hit, would have a canopy helped? Who knows. Only semi (bad pun intended) sure thing would've been a KW (Aussie Road Train Style (http://www.rogerwendell.com/images/australiatwo/australia_road_train_yellow.jpg)) that would've ran over the deer and keep on going.
In this case of Durango vs deer only driver won. Deer are just over grown rats that love to jump in front of on coming traffic. Having hit one and dodged countless others the fewer deer the better.
http://www.snopes.com/photos/durango.asp
Shake your head all you want. Someone was concerned about extracation and I came up with a possible solution to this problem. If you don't agree with an idea that someone makes it is much easier to say that you disagree with it and give a reason, not just put in a worthless emoticon. Some of the sports car fans in here can correct me, but if I remember my legends of motorsports Porsche special one of their prototypes from the 1960s were able to operate without a windshield wiper.
At the end of the day, I am gonna go with Ank's optimism on this topic, because, you should never reject a suggestion or idea as worthless until it is tested.You took my rollie guy a bit too seriously, sorry about that.
My vision of explosive bolts are on spacecraft, where the bolts, well, they freaking EXPLODE. Don't want that near my head.
I understand that they could be scaled back and all, but still.
My eye roll was really towards all in general that want to over-engineer the proposed canopy. A simple half canopy, with a slender secondary rollbar could be a (ugly) solution; it would've (could've??) deflected a deer over the driver's helmet. No ventilation issue, no extraction issue, fogging, etc.
Replace this with a half fighterjet canopy (taller, with a rollbar embedded into it, etc.):
http://steveaustinsautomobilia.com/james%20garner.JPG
Why do I do this to myself? Why? :shakehead (<<<<<----- that's at me)
Tifosi24
08-07-06, 03:11 PM
It is all good, I overreacted a little bit myself, it is probably a function of my being stuck around MBAers here at Marquette, no offense to any folks in here that have MBAs. Anyway, discourse is good because it helps get new ideas out, and in racing any serious accident should be investigated to find out if there are anyways to prevent that occurance in the future. The accidents of 1994 brought about the higher cockpits in open-wheel racing that have no doubt saved many lives over the past 10 years. You can't see the driver as well any more, but that is a trade-off I am willing to take.
I will have to say that there is likely no safety measure, on the car, that could have saved Greg Moore's life. It is one of those freakish deals where the Big Man says its your time to come. Changes also came out of that accident, the giant expanses of concrete on oval track infields might be ugly, but they are a vast improvement over what was there before.
Speaking of track improvements do you think Mid Ohio has leveled the launching ramp that sent Joey Hand on his multiple endos? I have been following this topic closely because I well remember our "F-16" canopy discussion from 7th Gear days, in fact I don't know that I didn't start it. I know Franklin was there! :D Interestinly enough I have recently posted head/roll hoop thoughts here soon after Sebastian's misfortune at Cleveland and a recent pic that was posted in the Feeder Series forum from an Atlantic race. There is certainly room for improvement (look at a Funny Car without the body work attached) and I think the main concern is; how far can you go with head protection in an openwheel car before it becomes closed cockpit? I saw the Toad Hall Allard at RA at the Historics last month (oops, last YEAR.) and the first thing I thought of was how that might be applied to open wheel. Huh, F-16s, Allards, Franklin, and they all came together in one topic. Also thought of Pryce in SA and even Chris Bristow way back at Spa. Small world. Probably a lot cheaper and easier to just get rid of the deer.
Tifosi24
08-07-06, 04:48 PM
Nismo, if you can figure out a way to get rid of the overpopulation of deer in rural areas you will win some sort of Nobel Prize, if it is in Wisconsin likely a lifetime supply of Miller. Now building more fences and wildlife friendly tunnels, that is probably a better solution. I wish I hadn't thrown out my environmental planning notes, because there have been a number of very successful wildlife friendly tunnel and bridge projects across the world that have mitigated animal vs. vehicle accidents. I don't know how successful they would be at a race circuit, but having a way for animals to freely roam a circuit while it is cold is likely a better solution then having certain areas off-limits because of fencing (which in a roundabout way goes back to the overpopulation problems.)
Gangrel
08-07-06, 05:06 PM
It is all good, I overreacted a little bit myself, it is probably a function of my being stuck around MBAers here at Marquette, no offense to any folks in here that have MBAs...
HEY!!!! I heard that!!!!
:rofl:
pferrf1
08-08-06, 09:56 AM
You might have an air issue with the closed cockpit. The drivers already complain about heat in the cockpit on hot days where the cockpit temps can get near 50 degrees celsius. Enclose that space, even with venting and it could become too hot.
I also think you can't just apply the other technologies to a top level OW car. The size of a champ car cockpit is much, much smaller in volume than a prototype sports car. In jet fighters the pilots wear a breathing apparatus.
Steve99
08-11-06, 04:45 PM
how would have this related to the crash that killed Greg Moore?
I really don't want to get into this, but I think it was the deceleration that caused the problem, and HANS device is used to prevent it from happening again.
Because it's just plastic that happens to be clear. If you make it thick enough to stop a projectile then it's optic properties go in the toilet and start to produce distortion, reflections and glare.
I need to apologize, I mis-read your post. I thought that you were saying that it WOULD stop a projectile or a deer.
My Mistake.
Sorry.
Forgive me!
Please?
In my buddies accident, he was wearing a helmet, and a facemask, with a five minute air supply, inside a canopy, wearing a five point harness, and had a fire extinguisher inside the cockpit. The engine is outside the enclosed cockpit.
It didn't matter. Because of the way he hit the water at 180 MPH, none of those safety measures helped him.
You can make these cars as safe as you want, and something else would happen.
Picture the same accident with DaMatta.
If he had a canopy on his cockpit, able to withstand a direct hit on the windsheild by a deer. OK?
Then picture that same accident, only CDM sees the deer and locks up his brakes and spins 90 degrees and takes that hit sideways. The canopy would have been knocked off and probably gone thru Chris. Is that better?
The point is that you make these cars as safe as you can, but the bottom line is twofold.
The drivers know the risk and they limit their exposure to that risk as much as they can, by being as safe as they can, in the safest cars they can drive.
Secondly, who wants to watch battle tanks run around a racetrack?
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