Clarke Wants Merger More Than FTG & KK

[NismoZ]

So he says. My guess is Aug. 1st passes with nary a ripple in the wind but without a word lately from either series honcho it is interesting that Honda speaks up and says again how much they care. Leads me to believe they are the main stumbling block at that. Indy Star report makes Clarke actually sound desperate. :) Then he says FTG has the upper hand because Honda is locked in 'til the end of '08 and through '09 if a 2nd mfg. is included. I think he is finding it was a lot easier to buy FTG than to bully KK. All Honda has to do to realize their dreams is to up the League engine lease and announce their new 2.65 turbo! Or just run to ALMS. :shakehead

[FTG]

he says FTG has the upper hand because Honda is locked in 'til the end of '08

"So since our support of the IRL is a stumbling block to unification, and everyone agrees that unification is necessary for the good of the sport, even the teams and owners of the IRL, today we announce that we will participating exclusively in the ALMS in 2007. If the parties ever come to an agreement, blah, blah, blah."

[dando]

You can't break up with me, I've got hand!

</seinfeld>


:D

-Kevin

EDIT: Oh, and I thought including a link when referencing 'news' like this was highly recommended, if not required, by the bosses?

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060717/SPORTS01/607170349/1052

[Andrew Longman]

KK doesn't want to do anything that will depart from the only business model that makes sense at this times of cost managed engines and chassis and events that stand on their own feet. Cosworth leases, DP01, and successful events like Edmonton almost certainly have to be. Merger or no, that's the only thing that will sustain an OW series today. Running Dallaras and Hondas on most ovals won't cut it.

TG doesn't want to do anything that causes him to lose Honda money, TV money, control of the 500 and anything else that is a source of his power and control.

Someone has to blink.

Frankly, if AGR goes to fewer cars, Rahal leaves, Chip leaves and/or if Danica leaves, TG going to start thinking about how many tubs and engine leases he is going to have to buy next May.

But right now, unless Clark just says, "You know, you just are not interested in making this sport something we want to be part of. We're buying out the contract", I doubt if there is anything Honda can do to influence TG.

[JLMannin]

The only thing that could further diminish fan interest in open wheel racing than the split did is a unification where TG is a partner.

I really don't care what happens, as I am all but lost as a fan. I am no more familiar with the CART teams and drivers than I am the IRL teams and drivers. The sad part is that back in mid to late 90's, I could tell you the names of most of the crew cheifs in CART and never missed a race, either by watching it live or taping it for later viewing. Now, I am lucky if I watch just one race from flag to flag per season.

[FanofMario]

The only thing that could further diminish fan interest in open wheel racing than the split did is a unification where TG is a partner.

I really don't care what happens, as I am all but lost as a fan. I am no more familiar with the CART teams and drivers than I am the IRL teams and drivers. The sad part is that back in mid to late 90's, I could tell you the names of most of the crew cheifs in CART and never missed a race, either by watching it live or taping it for later viewing. Now, I am lucky if I watch just one race from flag to flag per season.

True, but I don't see the SOB out of the picture with a merger. His ego will not allow it. :rolleyes:
Unfortunately your disinterest in the sport is multiplied many times over IMO. Either something happens to unite the sport or it will become a bigger niche in the racing world than it is. :(

[L1P1]

If the team owners on both sides want unification as Clarke suggests, perhaps they should form sort of collective that would represent their interests. All the team owners tend to be successful in their own right, but seem to forget everything they know is important in the heat of competition. They'd just need to find a savvy and strong-willed individual of the Bernie Ecclestone mold. He could work for a, oh, say, 2% commission. Beyond that, they'd just need a secretary and perhaps an accountant.

Now that the IRL has proven that it's impossible to separate money from the sport, this new organization would focus on growing the pie so that there's more to spread around.

The new organization, let's call it Combined Auto Racing Teams, could represent the team owners in all negotiations.

[devilmaster]

The new organization, let's call it Combined Auto Racing Teams, could represent the team owners in all negotiations.

I could get behind an idea like that.

[Spicoli]

I could get behind an idea like that.

you really, really think leaving Cappy liverspots, Gan*********, Rahole, Mikey the Lesser, Fat Carl, KK, Russo, etc etc etc to agree on ANYTHING is even remotely possible? :laugh:

You'd have better luck selling human rights to lil Kim of North KooooReeeah. :rofl:

Talk to some folks who dealt with the CART of the 1999-2002 era. NOTHING worked right. :shakehead

I think the answer lies in KK running the show from a CEO standpoint. He'd let his team to JV & Petit on the day to day, and then hire a Cottman or Circus clow to steward/shepard/whatever. Fill out the staff with the revolving door of Johnsons/Pooks/Clares/etc and hire some good Marketing staff and away we go.

You can't let the crooks (owners) run the prison. Nooooo sireee. Nu-uh.

[nissan gtp]

I could get behind an idea like that.

Not me.

Team owners have lots of influence --- they can stay or go. They should not be part of running the sport, although they can and should be consulted (it's politcs, after all). Suppliers should not be part of running the sport, so Robert Clarke should be left swinging in the wind where he belongs (or take the short blade if he stays with Honda till the end).

[L1P1]

Talk to some folks who dealt with the CART of the 1999-2002 era. NOTHING worked right. :shakehead


"Mar 1998: CART becomes a publicly-traded stock company on the NYSE with an IPO."

They weren't in charge any longer. They now had themselves a BOD with fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders - not the team owners. Penske didn't like this and sold out while the selling was good.

[pchall]

The new organization, let's call it Combined Auto Racing Teams, could represent the team owners in all negotiations.

Sounds good in theory, but the acronym carries too much baggage. :rofl:

[L1P1]

Sounds good in theory, but the acronym carries too much baggage. :rofl:

How 'bout Independent Racing Legends, then?

[Spicoli]

"Mar 1998: CART becomes a publicly-traded stock company on the NYSE with an IPO."

They weren't in charge any longer. They now had themselves a BOD with fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders - not the team owners. Penske didn't like this and sold out while the selling was good.

BS. No matter what it looked like on paper or what you heard, there were half-dozen owner's egos who ran everything.....into the ground. :mad:

[nrc]

BS. No matter what it looked like on paper or what you heard, there were half-dozen owner's egos who ran everything.....into the ground. :mad:

That was the problem - the BOD had fiduciary responsibility but the "franchise board" (ie, the owners) had power over the rules and basically ran (or rather failed to run) the sport.

That worked when CART was a collection of owners banded together to serve their own interests. It clearly had problems but the stability that the deadlock between owners created wasn't an entirely bad thing.

Once the IPO was done all the back room deals had to become transparent (#1 reason Penske left) and it was every man for himself. Add in a few owners with Indyitis and a couple of truckloads of yen and you have the mess that was CART circa 2000.

[manic mechanic]

you really, really think leaving Cappy liverspots, Gan*********, Rahole, Mikey the Lesser, Fat Carl, KK, Russo, etc etc etc to agree on ANYTHING is even remotely possible? :laugh:

You'd have better luck selling human rights to lil Kim of North KooooReeeah. :rofl:

Talk to some folks who dealt with the CART of the 1999-2002 era. NOTHING worked right. :shakehead

I think the answer lies in KK running the show from a CEO standpoint. He'd let his team to JV & Petit on the day to day, and then hire a Cottman or Circus clow to steward/shepard/whatever. Fill out the staff with the revolving door of Johnsons/Pooks/Clares/etc and hire some good Marketing staff and away we go.

You can't let the crooks (owners) run the prison. Nooooo sireee. Nu-uh.

You forgot Heitzlers.... :D

manic

[devilmaster]

geez guys..... It was tongue in cheek.......

We already had that scenario.

My bad, i'll put the obvious winking smiley next time ;)

[pchall]

How 'bout Independent Racing Legends, then?

Works for me. :gomer:

[Spicoli]

That was the problem - the BOD had fiduciary responsibility but the "franchise board" (ie, the owners) had power over the rules and basically ran (or rather failed to run) the sport.

That worked when CART was a collection of owners banded together to serve their own interests. It clearly had problems but the stability that the deadlock between owners created wasn't an entirely bad thing.

Once the IPO was done all the back room deals had to become transparent (#1 reason Penske left) and it was every man for himself. Add in a few owners with Indyitis and a couple of truckloads of yen and you have the mess that was CART circa 2000.

Absolutely.


These a-holes are like sharks at a slaughtering. They could care less about each other, or the health of the sport. They just want to win (which makes it all kinda neat if you think about it).

Is there any other sport that combines politics, athelticism, technology and money the way (most) OW racing does? Nope. Thats the beauty, and thats the pain. It, by nature attracts these money grubbing winner take all owners. Pimpske is a prime example. Whether you like him or not, its hard to argue that he is the premier OW team in NA - and has been for decades. He's a knock-down drag-out screw his momma to win kinda guy. And if you beat him, you got sumthin to yack about.

I'm not sure what the winning formula is for running OW (altrhough I have a feeling we're gonna see FTG show us another way to F himself), but the above is the best I can figure.

We sure have alot of examples of what WON'T work.

[sundaydriver2]

Until the Idiotgrandson goes back to being a track owner, OWR will suffer big time.

I doubt that it will happen anytime soon.

:thumdown:

[Hard Driver]

The new organization, let's call it Combined Auto Racing Teams, could represent the team owners in all negotiations.

They would not have the Indy 500. Other than that, what you have left is champcar. So what you would have to do is convince the IRL owners to come top Champcar and FORCE Tony to either finance the entire field himself with scab teams, run midgets or cancel the race. But unless ALL of the owners defect from the IRL, Tony will still be a pig headed idiot. As long as Tony can run an Indy 500 and is making money on a brickyard 500, then his ego will never allow unification.

Tony's entire vision is gone. The cars are expensive, the drivers are foreign, the engine manufacturers are paying for the thing as well as himself, the fans have mostly rejected, the TV ratings are in the dump, NASCAR has taken over and Tony fails to admit that his temper tantrum for control has done any damage. Pretty much the definition of an idiot.

[Racing Truth]

BS. No matter what it looked like on paper or what you heard, there were half-dozen owner's egos who ran everything.....into the ground. :mad:

Yep. There was a reason CART blew up. And the thing is, it eventually affected the on-track product. The ovals from '99-'02 were painful.

[datachicane]

geez guys..... It was tongue in cheek.......

We already had that scenario.

My bad, i'll put the obvious winking smiley next time ;)

Man, some folks must not have had their coffee yet.
:saywhat:
That's gotta be one of the most successful gomerings ever.

[Boatdesigner]

Maybe KK should open his checkbook and buy Mikey, Rahole and Ganassi? Without them, TG wouldn't have much of a series and it would force him to give in or go down with the ship. I had thought a rumor was going around that Mikey was already considering switching back. (No, I am not trying to start a discussion of whether we want any of them back! :rolleyes: )

[cartman]

Talk to some folks who dealt with the CART of the 1999-2002 era. NOTHING worked right. :shakehead

I worked for CART from 1999-2001, oh the stories I could tell ya'll. I think the non-disclosure agreement I signed when I got hired is pretty much null and void by now, so if there's anything in particular that I could possibly enlighten anyone on, let me know and if it's something I knew anything about I'll do my best to give ya the skinny. If any of you have one of those "Who's Who In CART" books they used to publish you can see my smiling mug in the 1999 version.

[pferrf1]

Find a successful racing series on this planet that is not run by a dictatorship.

[L1P1]

Find a successful racing series on this planet that is not run by a dictatorship.

Depending on your definition of successful, there may well be several. But if you mean unquestionably top-shelf, there are only two of those and they're both dictatorized.

However, if I think back to the last series I felt truly worthy to be among that small group, it would have to be CART, circa 1994. A series that had been building since 1978 and with no help from USAC, had both the Indy 500 and the current F1 world championship driver.

That was the organization that was formed after a brilliant analysis by Dan Gurney (whose 1977 thoughts I was paraphrasing earlier). The owner-driven model succeeded almost instantly and staved off an unwise dictatorship until 1995. Then we got the dictatorship.

But I didn't even mean to support that model when I originally posted. I was just trying to point out the irony that, even if TG and KK get naked and appear in bed together like John and Yoko, that the team owners will still make their own decisions.

"Yeah, hey, great, naked guys. Come to Le Mans and we'll buy you a beer and a croissant."

[racer2c]

Depending on your definition of successful, there may well be several. But if you mean unquestionably top-shelf, there are only two of those and they're both dictatorized.

However, if I think back to the last series I felt truly worthy to be among that small group, it would have to be CART, circa 1994. A series that had been building since 1978 and with no help from USAC, had both the Indy 500 and the current F1 world championship driver.

That was the organization that was formed after a brilliant analysis by Dan Gurney (whose 1977 thoughts I was paraphrasing earlier). The owner-driven model succeeded almost instantly and staved off an unwise dictatorship until 1995. Then we got the dictatorship.

Little did Gurney know at the time that the franchise model would consist of money grubbing, all for one and one is me, owners later in CART's life. You can see Gurney's involvement in CCWS.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Little did Gurney know at the time that the franchise model would consist of money grubbing, all for one and one is me, owners later in CART's life. You can see Gurney's involvement in CCWS.

Umm, has there been any other business model for road racing besides what you've described above?

[L1P1]

Little did Gurney know at the time that the franchise model would consist of money grubbing, all for one and one is me, owners later in CART's life. You can see Gurney's involvement in CCWS.

Gurney never talked about a franchise model (well, as far as I know, but certainly not in the White Paper (http://www.allamericanracers.com/cart_white-paper.html)). He was specifically addressing the fact that money grubbing was part of the sport.

[edit]
To Witt:


It is my firm belief that rather than cutting the cost of racing which in itself is nearly impossible, it is far more important to make money more readily available by increasing the popularity and prestige of the sport with the general public.

[nrc]

Find a successful racing series on this planet that is not run by a dictatorship.

CART was pretty successful for 20 years until someone decided they should be dictator.

[racer2c]

Gurney never talked about a franchise model (well, as far as I know, but certainly not in the White Paper (http://www.allamericanracers.com/cart_white-paper.html)). He was specifically addressing the fact that money grubbing was part of the sport.

[edit]
To Witt:

Which is exactly what Pimpske, Gannasti and Rahole (and later Andretti the Lesser) did...to better the sport. :rolleyes: How popular is the sport now?

"Ah, I love the smell of yen in the morning" actual quote from CART owner circa 2000. :gomer:

[L1P1]

Which is exactly what Pimpske, Gannasti and Rahole (and later Andretti the Lesser) did...

Franchising, or money grubbing?

[pferrf1]

CART was pretty successful for 20 years until someone decided they should be dictator.

You could debate that point, Especially the last 10 years. You just can't run successful organizations by committee which is what CART was trying to do. Once there was actually money to be had, the multiple self interests killed it. You could also debate that had CART been a dictatorship at the time, there would have been no opportunity for the inheritor to become dictator.

[Racing Truth]

Umm, has there been any other business model for road racing besides what you've described above?

Perhaps not, but then again, unfortunately, road racing has been stuck in uber-nichedom in this country. Not to mention the fact that we've seen so many RR series come and go, largely due to managerial stupidity, incompetence, ineffectiveness.

Oh, and its true that Anton ruined the sport. But CART destroyed CART.