Champ Car should look at something like the F1 qualifying format.

[L1P1]

I went to the USGP Quals today. It was my first time seeing F1 cars in person, so I was really looking to experience the sights and sounds more than having any cliff hanging qualification moments (the chance of which occurring seemed iffy at best).

But as I walked around from one vantage-point to the next, I thought to myself "This qualifying setup really makes sense."

I think qualifying is interesting, but there's so much happening at any certain point that it's hard to present - either on TV or for the announcers at the track.

The F1 setup quickly eliminates the wheat from the chaff. There are a lot of stories up and down the grid, and this format allows them to be sorted out from least important to most important. I do wish they'd run a third elimination session so you'd finally get down to four or five cars for the final run, but that's a detail. In concept, I really like it.

[Insomniac]

I went to the USGP Quals today. It was my first time seeing F1 cars in person, so I was really looking to experience the sights and sounds more than having any cliff hanging qualification moments (the chance of which occurring seemed iffy at best).

But as I walked around from one vantage-point to the next, I thought to myself "This qualifying setup really makes sense."

I think qualifying is interesting, but there's so much happening at any certain point that it's hard to present - either on TV or for the announcers at the track.

The F1 setup quickly eliminates the wheat from the chaff. There are a lot of stories up and down the grid, and this format allows them to be sorted out from least important to most important. I do wish they'd run a third elimination session so you'd finally get down to four or five cars for the final run, but that's a detail. In concept, I really like it.

The knockout seems okay, but the whole put the fuel in the car for the race is stupid. Either line the cars up by fastest possible to slowest or line them up to make the race more entertaining for the fans. What is the point of the fans watching guys go around the track in circles for 15 minutes and then get action for 5 minutes? Entertain the fans the whole time. No fuel nonsense, break it into 5 minute sections (no pauses) and tell the bottom 3 at the end of 5 minutes they are done, the bottom 2 after 5 more minutes they are done and the bottom driver after the next 5 minutes they are done leaving 4 cars fighting for pole the last 5 minutes. That's a lot of hot laps, a lot of pushing and a lot of knockouts. Then you get that excitement they have the last 5 minutes the whole time.

[jonovision_man]

I don't like that the guy in 11th can pick whatever fuel strategy he wants, but the guy in 10th is stuck qualifying on his race fuel (less what he can burn off).

Other than that, the knock-out format has been quite excellent.

jono

[Insomniac]

I don't like that the guy in 11th can pick whatever fuel strategy he wants, but the guy in 10th is stuck qualifying on his race fuel (less what he can burn off).

Other than that, the knock-out format has been quite excellent.

jono

They get "fuel credits" to fill it back up if they choose.

[L1P1]

I wasn't really thinking about the fuel aspect. I'd throw the whole fuel thing out. Put as much as you want in whenever you want.

[jonovision_man]

They get "fuel credits" to fill it back up if they choose.

I know, but that still doesn't leave them close to an empty tank generally. They only have enough time for a few laps of burn-off before they have to get their hot lap in.


I wasn't really thinking about the fuel aspect. I'd throw the whole fuel thing out. Put as much as you want in whenever you want.

Agreed... I think if you did that you'd have a heck of a qualifying system.

jono

[RTKar]

It's a great qualifying system. Saturday at the USGP was like watching short track heat races. Where else can you see passing attempts during qualifying? Dare I say Saturday was more entertaining than the race itself? Single car qualifying is ok on ovals but the days of CART's slow and fast group double sessions produced drama that a single car scenario cannot. F1's system improves upon that by allowing greater fairness in the event of rain and changing track conditions and gives the fans something more to watch.

[Twisty Bits]

Dare I say Saturday was more entertaining than the race itself?

Not much of a stretch there.

[Lizzerd]

It's a great qualifying system. Saturday at the USGP was like watching short track heat races. Where else can you see passing attempts during qualifying? Dare I say Saturday was more entertaining than the race itself? Single car qualifying is ok on ovals but the days of CART's slow and fast group double sessions produced drama that a single car scenario cannot. F1's system improves upon that by allowing greater fairness in the event of rain and changing track conditions and gives the fans something more to watch.

Agreed.

The final session was like a mini-race. They all screamed out of the pits at the same time, and all pitted for tires in the last couple minutes. The actual race excitement was over after the first lap schlemozzle. (did I spell that right?)

[Cam]

Agreed.

The final session was like a mini-race. They all screamed out of the pits at the same time, and all pitted for tires in the last couple minutes. The actual race excitement was over after the first lap schlemozzle. (did I spell that right?)

schemozzle ;)

[greenie]

F1 has a great quallifying system this year IMO - they are little mini-races.

I'd like to see that in Champ Car, but there needs to be more that a soft 17 cars on the ****ing grid.

[Lux Interior]

I was there for both qualy and the race and, sadly, the qualy was more exciting than the race! Alonso and Schumi were dicing all during the last session.

[patski]

The F1 Qualis on TV stink. Try BORING. CC has the best qualifing format around and doesnot need to change.

[devilmaster]

I suppose my only concern is having a qualy format that is simple to understand and easily watchable and rememberable. (if that is a word ;) )

I look at something like Champcar's point system.

A few years ago, someone came up with the bright idea that they should change the point system. I honestly haven't followed the point system since. The broadcast can tell me who's in the series lead and i'll just accept it as fact. CC had probably one of the smartest and simplest series point systems around (next to F1), and IMO, they messed up a simple, yet effective way to give points.

Back to qually formats - They have tinkered with this for years to allow all teams the chance to qual equally. 2 groups didn't work because the track was better for the 2nd group, or even worse, the 1st group gets a dry track while the 2nd (and usually faster group) gets wet. (although that makes for an interesting race)

If they want to do anything new, make sure they follow KISS, and I ain't talkin bout Gene Simmons either.

[cameraman]

The F1 Qualis on TV stink. Try BORING. CC has the best qualifing format around and doesnot need to change.

The F1 quals are excellent on TV and Champ Car does need to change.

[cameraman]

If they want to do anything new, make sure they follow KISS, and I ain't talkin bout Gene Simmons either.

Everybody goes out, 15 minute session, fastest 3/4 go on.
3/4 go out, 15 minute session, fastest half go on.
1/2 go out, 15 minute session, fastest 1/4 go on.
remaining 1/4 go out, 15 minute session, fastest gets pole.

Fuel & tires up to the teams. p2p resets every session.

It doesn't take a PhD to understand that.

15 minute session allow for two or three stints per session as needed.

[Insomniac]

I was there for both qualy and the race and, sadly, the qualy was more exciting than the race! Alonso and Schumi were dicing all during the last session.

Reading this thread, it seems like the qualifing is a lot better in person than on TV. The last 20 minutes look like a parade for 15 minutes and then the last 5 there is some excitement.

[Insomniac]

I suppose my only concern is having a qualy format that is simple to understand and easily watchable and rememberable. (if that is a word ;) )

I look at something like Champcar's point system.

A few years ago, someone came up with the bright idea that they should change the point system. I honestly haven't followed the point system since. The broadcast can tell me who's in the series lead and i'll just accept it as fact. CC had probably one of the smartest and simplest series point systems around (next to F1), and IMO, they messed up a simple, yet effective way to give points.

Back to qually formats - They have tinkered with this for years to allow all teams the chance to qual equally. 2 groups didn't work because the track was better for the 2nd group, or even worse, the 1st group gets a dry track while the 2nd (and usually faster group) gets wet. (although that makes for an interesting race)

If they want to do anything new, make sure they follow KISS, and I ain't talkin bout Gene Simmons either.

I think I said it before, if they want more excitement, they need a lottery. :)

[Insomniac]

Everybody goes out, 15 minute session, fastest 3/4 go on.
3/4 go out, 15 minute session, fastest half go on.
1/2 go out, 15 minute session, fastest 1/4 go on.
remaining 1/4 go out, 15 minute session, fastest gets pole.

Fuel & tires up to the teams. p2p resets every session.

It doesn't take a PhD to understand that.

15 minute session allow for two or three stints per session as needed.

Times shouldn't "reset" either. That's just stupid.

[cameraman]

Why not reset? We are not paying to see the fastest car sit in the pit for a session waiting for somebody to go quicker. Everybody has to go out, every session because the times reset.

The whole point of the process is four sprint races.

[nrc]

How about two sessions, one for the faster cars, one for the slower cars. Run as many laps as you like.

[L1P1]

The F1 Qualis on TV stink. Try BORING. CC has the best qualifing format around and doesnot need to change.

Whatever the format, I don't think I've ever seen TV cover qualifications as well as they could be. I think it's because of the visual nature of TV. They always have to choose one car to focus on. It's the stopwatch that matters. We need more data on the screen.

[Insomniac]

Why not reset? We are not paying to see the fastest car sit in the pit for a session waiting for somebody to go quicker. Everybody has to go out, every session because the times reset.

The whole point of the process is four sprint races.

The bottom 5 cars get knocked out. The times are going to get faster and faster throughout. It reduces confusion.

If the goal is to reduce confusion and keep cars out on track then you have one 60 minute session and every 15 minutes, whoever has the bottom 5 times are told to get off the track for the rest of the session.

[Insomniac]

How about two sessions, one for the faster cars, one for the slower cars. Run as many laps as you like.

Brilliant! I remember someone doing this back in the day, I forget who. ;)

[Insomniac]

Whatever the format, I don't think I've ever seen TV cover qualifications as well as they could be. I think it's because of the visual nature of TV. They always have to choose one car to focus on. It's the stopwatch that matters. We need more data on the screen.

What we need is even more information on the screen. :)

[L1P1]

What we need is even more information on the screen. :)

One of the best races I ever "watched" was the Indy 500 that Robbie Gordon should have won. I wouldn't give TG any money to go to the race, but still wanted to see an unknown furriner like Wym Eickman win the race. So I tuned into the radio and online T&S.

Ol' Wym fell out early, and soon the only outsider/semi-CART type left was Robbie. And he was a lap down. But I could see that his lap times were as good or better than anyone's. He started reeling in the leaders and I could see this on the T&S.

He eventually got up to, and then past the leaders. The radio guys were focusing on the front runners and mentioned that a car had gotten past them but "it was just a lapped car".

At this point I'm screaming "ROBBIE GOT HIS LAP BACK AND HE's RUNNING A SECOND A LAP FASTER THAN ANYONE ON THE TRACK!!!" I watched him reeling in the leaders further until he had gotten within a half a lap - when a yellow came out. That left him sixth, and right on the tails of the leaders.

The leaders pitted and Menard inexplicably left him out there to pick up the lead. He was going to win - 'cept he ran out of fuel.

From that day forward, I've been a big fan of the data.

[Insomniac]

One of the best races I ever "watched" was the Indy 500 that Robbie Gordon should have won. I wouldn't give TG any money to go to the race, but still wanted to see an unknown furriner like Wym Eickman win the race. So I tuned into the radio and online T&S.

Ol' Wym fell out early, and soon the only outsider/semi-CART type left was Robbie. And he was a lap down. But I could see that his lap times were as good or better than anyone's. He started reeling in the leaders and I could see this on the T&S.

He eventually got up to, and then past the leaders. The radio guys were focusing on the front runners and mentioned that a car had gotten past them but "it was just a lapped car".

At this point I'm screaming "ROBBIE GOT HIS LAP BACK AND HE's RUNNING A SECOND A LAP FASTER THAN ANYONE ON THE TRACK!!!" I watched him reeling in the leaders further until he had gotten within a half a lap - when a yellow came out. That left him sixth, and right on the tails of the leaders.

The leaders pitted and Menard inexplicably left him out there to pick up the lead. He was going to win - 'cept he ran out of fuel.

From that day forward, I've been a big fan of the data.


IMO, it just clutters up and obscures the broadcast nowadays (Admittedly, F1 does a very good job). I would blame the production team for what you just described. It was a terrible job of the announcers, spotters and production assistants to not pick up on that and relay it to the announcers. That type of information makes a race more exciting, and you don't need a constant crawl to relay that information, just an intelligent production team.

[Lizzerd]

What we need is even more information on the screen. :)

Race Director. TV plus 'puter = knowing what's going on.

[Insomniac]

Race Director. TV plus 'puter = knowing what's going on.

I haven't used RD, but does it use the network feed for video?

[cameraman]

It has many video feeds.

[Tifosi24]

I like some of the ideas being thrown about, and having qualifying similar to heats at a short track would bring a lot more people out on Saturdays. I haven't been able to see any F1 qualifying this year, but it sounds like they are really on to something with the system they are using this year.

I will agree with Champ Car's point system as well, it use to be so simple it was stupid. It rewarded people for finishing high in the order, but also had enough built in depth that a person was also rewarded for a midpack finish. I don't even know how the new point system works, or does, and I have never taken the time to even look at it.

[Lizzerd]

I haven't used RD, but does it use the network feed for video?

The "network" video feed is about 30 seconds or so behind what you see on TV. Timing and scoring is what I generally use during a race, which doesn't seem to have as much of a delay. I watch the video feeds and use T&S during qualifying and practice.

And, as cameraman said, there are something like 6-8 video feeds you can choose from.

You're supposed to get car to pit radio for all of the drivers too, but it's never worked for me. Any suggestions anybody?

[L1P1]

You're supposed to get car to pit radio for all of the drivers too, but it's never worked for me. Any suggestions anybody?

It worked okay for me when I tried it out originally. But I couldn't decide who I should be listening to at any given time.

One thing I'd like to see is for a bunch of people to all choose a car to monitor (audio and T&S) and report significant events in a chat window. If it got out of hand, perhaps a moderator could choose to delay or eliminate certain postings so backmarker traffic didn't overwhelm a desperate fight for the lead.

[cameraman]

Reading this thread, it seems like the qualifing is a lot better in person than on TV. The last 20 minutes look like a parade for 15 minutes and then the last 5 there is some excitement.

They just changed the rules & the last session will now be 15 minutes.
A bit of parade reduction and it will really change the fuel considerations since the fuel & 110% speed rules did not change.

[Insomniac]

They just changed the rules & the last session will now be 15 minutes.
A bit of parade reduction and it will really change the fuel considerations since the fuel & 110% speed rules did not change.

Seems like it will just shorten the parade time. The final times will just be a little slower. Not many teams are going to try and get a couple spots on the grid and then come in way early.