It's on again

[nrc]

"We've agreed conceptually (to share ownership), yes," George said from Richmond International Raceway, which was hosting the IRL's SunTrust Indy Challenge on Saturday night. "Now we have to agree on how we would go about resolving differences that might come up."http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060624/SPORTS01/606250418


Kalkhoven said Champ Car will unveil its new Panoz chassis for 2007 at the San Jose (Calif.) Grand Prix in late July, and the car will be used in a unified series in some form.

"You don't throw away that kind of development," Kalkhoven said. "It will be extremely economic to operate."

[theunions]

Updated link (http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060625/SPORTS01/606250418/1004/SPORTS)

[KLang]

Don't know if I can support a 50-50 split. :shakehead

Of course there is still plenty of time for FTG to walk away, which I think will happen.

[Lux Interior]

After seeing the great vibe in Cleveland this weekend, in particular in the Atlantics, I think champcar should just tough it out and not merge.

[NismoZ]

Double header weekends? Does The League really want to show how much slower they are? Perhaps the DP01/Cosworth will be "dialed back" somehow as part of a whole same site equivalancy experiment? A piecemeal approach. Interesting. Can you see some of the same teams and drivers running both weekend events? No doubt KK's 500 participation offer is the move that got this thing off square 1. Penske saying he likes it is one thing that scares me. Looks like '08 at the earliest for merged competition.

[rosawendel]

i don't mind the double headers... it gives the underfunded teams a chance to run as part of the transition, rather than providing an abrupt showing of the door. it also allows for existing event contracts to be run out, without lawsuits.

that being said, at the larger venues where a larger number of pit stalls could be accomodated, i'd like to see a "run what you brung" event.

[Insomniac]

I'm happy they are getting somewhere and that the DP01 is not going anywhere. :)

[NismoZ]

Yes, KK's DP01 statement was the sweetest part of the announcement. Whether that means an agreement was reached for it's continued use as part of a full merger in '08 or not, it is still a very hopeful sign. No mention of powerplant but Clarke was at Portland so I don't think Honda is going away. I hope to heaven it isn't a "Your car, our engine" kind of a compromise. I have full confidence Cosworth could provide an equal NA engine to Honda, but why? With emphasis on some street venues the turbo is of course more environmentally friendly. Will it run satisfactorily on ethanol though? Practical or not that bandwagon is loading up and I wonder if it'd be any easier to walk away from than the DP01 would have been? Yes lots of issues. Of course the "sharing of ownership" makes it sound like a 50/50 deal but I wonder. :confused:

[cart7]

After seeing the great vibe in Cleveland this weekend, in particular in the Atlantics, I think champcar should just tough it out and not merge.

I have a feeling KK's checkbook is saying otherwise.

[Insomniac]

Yes, KK's DP01 statement was the sweetest part of the announcement. Whether that means an agreement was reached for it's continued use as part of a full merger in '08 or not, it is still a very hopeful sign. No mention of powerplant but Clarke was at Portland so I don't think Honda is going away. I hope to heaven it isn't a "Your car, our engine" kind of a compromise. I have full confidence Cosworth could provide an equal NA engine to Honda, but why? With emphasis on some street venues the turbo is of course more environmentally friendly. Will it run satisfactorily on ethanol though? Practical or not that bandwagon is loading up and I wonder if it'd be any easier to walk away from than the DP01 would have been? Yes lots of issues. Of course the "sharing of ownership" makes it sound like a 50/50 deal but I wonder. :confused:

I could not see any situation where TG doesn't have equal power/ownership for two reasons. First, he's TG, the split happened over power/ownership, he's not ging to give it up. Second, he owns 100% of the IRL and I'm not sure you could say CCWS is worth more than the IRL.

[meadors]

he owns 100% of the IRL and I'm not sure you could say CCWS is worth more than the IRL.
The management of CCWS alone is worth 10x the whole the IRL, but of course moron cokehead doesn't get that so it's a moot point.

[Accipiter]

I just really have to reserve judgement until the details of the engine rules and the '08 schedule are known.

[Insomniac]

The management of CCWS alone is worth 10x the whole the IRL, but of course moron cokehead doesn't get that so it's a moot point.

That may be what you think/feel, but reality is a lot different.

[KLang]

'Shared ownership'

While the devil will be in the details, wouldn't this just leave the sport one 'vision' away from another split?

[meadors]

That may be what you think/feel, but reality is a lot different.
Are you saying TG is smarter than KK? I look at mgt from the CEO on down and the value of the assets of both series and conclude you have a lot more strength in KK's management ability and his team versus the IRL. Again TG would never believe it though.

[L1P1]

'Shared ownership'

While the devil will be in the details, wouldn't this just leave the sport one 'vision' away from another split?

Not if they have an outsider who will make the call when there are disagreements. That appears to be what they're after.

[racer2c]

I could not see any situation where TG doesn't have equal power/ownership for two reasons. First, he's TG, the split happened over power/ownership, he's not ging to give it up. Second, he owns 100% of the IRL and I'm not sure you could say CCWS is worth more than the IRL.


Dude, instead of htrowing out opinions, educate us all with the facts. I can't wait.

[ferrarigod]

Not if they have an outsider who will make the call when there are disagreements. That appears to be what they're after.

The rumors also state Mears or Mario for the 3rd party. Mears is in Penske's pocket, and I don't know if I'd want Mario as I think both Mears and Mario could represent the league's teams that they support openly.

I doubt Mario would be like that, but if Mikey doesn't want something, I don't want to think that Mario would be swayed by juniors idiocy.

[NismoZ]

Horne will do it.

[devilmaster]

Is Judge Otte near retirement? He has an outsider's knowledge of the situation......

:D

[Andrew Longman]

I actually don't see a lot new in the piece except it is encouraging that TG said again that they have an agreement (which goes a little beyond previous statements that they agree they need to merge, but practically speaking, given what else he said about how to settle disagreement does not mean much new).

KKs comments on the commitment to the DP01 was the single best news in the article. Given the performance I witnessed this weekend of the new Atlantic car I'd say the CC braintrust knows what they are going.

[coolhand]

I don't care anymore, just merge. :thumbup:

[oddlycalm]

Of course there is still plenty of time for FTG to walk away, which I think will happen. Yeah, but even if that happens it will have given us meltdown threads like this one... :rofl:

Meltdown in progress (http://www.trackforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77987)

It's kinda like overly territorial birds blasting into a plate glass window because they see their reflection... :gomer:

oc

[RTKar]

After seeing the great vibe in Cleveland this weekend, in particular in the Atlantics, I think champcar should just tough it out and not merge.

I wasn't at Cleveland but Milwaukee had a decent crowd too. Unfortunately it may be too little too late otherwise I'd tend to agree. The big sponsorships needed aren't coming and TV ratings are still abysmal. If the CC powers can financially do it, I 'd much prefer to see them bury tg and any hint of the irl.

[Accipiter]

Yeah, but even if that happens it will have given us meltdown threads like this one... :rofl:





It's always fun to see how the other tenth lives. :gomer:

[Lux Interior]

Kevin told the local paper here in Cleveland that the merger was a given, it was just the details that needed to be sorted out.

[mueber]

The devil is in the details. I’ll wait until I see them.

[Insomniac]

Are you saying TG is smarter than KK? I look at mgt from the CEO on down and the value of the assets of both series and conclude you have a lot more strength in KK's management ability and his team versus the IRL. Again TG would never believe it though.

I am in no way saying that TG is smarter than KK. I don't know TG personally, but KK's business record speaks for itself. There's no doubting that KK and company have saved ChampCar, but at the same time they still are losing money, which is exactly what the CART predecessors (Pook) were doing. TG has, by all accounts been losing money for 10+ years and is still going on just fine. Like the IRL or not, they appear that they can keep losing money as well.

[Insomniac]

Dude, instead of htrowing out opinions, educate us all with the facts. I can't wait.

Unfortunately, TG and KK don't send me their books. But what assets does either side have that you think are more valuable?

IRL has a TV contract that pays them, CCWS buys their time. One's an asset, the other a liability.
Track agreements: Both series have them. Do you want to debate whose contracts are better? (Hint: IRL has IMS)

What does CCWS have that would make it worth that much more than the IRL that TG should expect to be anything less than 50% owner?

Don't confuse any of this as me wanting TG to be involved. I'd love for him to be left out in the cold, but the fact of the matter is, if you want a merger, TG is going to be part of the solution. I want a merger.

[NismoZ]

I just think the prelims are interesting. Who do you think is trying harder? Probably the one with the most to gain? Maybe not. 1.) KK takes a bunch of teams, drivers and money to Indy. Advantage, TG. 2.) TG gets to run at Long Beach and, I read, possibly Toronto and Mexico City? Advantage, TG. 3.) CC "gets" to run St. Pete. Advantage, TG. (and AG Promotions! :rolleyes: ) Despite what is said here and how most here feel, CC needs Indy and Network TV. Advantage held by TG. TG needs a new car and a proper feeder series. Advantage, KK. Honda needs competition (or so they say) and Cosworth can give it to them. I hope NO advantage there. If it is indeed a 50/50 ownership split I'd say CC may actually be quite lucky and some old TG followers may believe he's given away the farm. Viewpoint. Instead of dwelling on what could or might happen in negative ways can't we see the good that can result from this? I think it is less a gamble than many of you think. The POSSIBLE gains far outweigh the CERTAIN continued losses as far as I can tell and justify the efforts toward merger now being made.

[Louie]

The POSSIBLE gains far outweigh the CERTAIN continued losses as far as I can tell and justify the efforts toward merger now being made.

Thank you NismoZ. 11 years (and 12 before things possible shake out) is long enough. My boy was 5 when this crap started. Now he's a NASCAR fan. :cry:

[Insomniac]

I just think the prelims are interesting. Who do you think is trying harder? Probably the one with the most to gain? Maybe not. 1.) KK takes a bunch of teams, drivers and money to Indy. Advantage, TG. 2.) TG gets to run at Long Beach and, I read, possibly Toronto and Mexico City? Advantage, TG. 3.) CC "gets" to run St. Pete. Advantage, TG. (and AG Promotions! :rolleyes: ) Despite what is said here and how most here feel, CC needs Indy and Network TV. Advantage held by TG. TG needs a new car and a proper feeder series. Advantage, KK. Honda needs competition (or so they say) and Cosworth can give it to them. I hope NO advantage there. If it is indeed a 50/50 ownership split I'd say CC may actually be quite lucky and some old TG followers may believe he's given away the farm. Viewpoint. Instead of dwelling on what could or might happen in negative ways can't we see the good that can result from this? I think it is less a gamble than many of you think. The POSSIBLE gains far outweigh the CERTAIN continued losses as far as I can tell and justify the efforts toward merger now being made.

If ChampCar gets to run more ovals, they gain something and so do their fans, IMO.

[dando]

Track agreements: Both series have them. Do you want to debate whose contracts are better? (Hint: IRL has IMS)


Keep in mind that CCWS owns events like LB and Toronto, and probably others indirectly if not directly. Also, the overall series attendance figures heavily favor CCWS, depending on who's numbers you believe.

-Kevin

[L1P1]

I wouldn't be too quick paint TG's position as rosey. As evidence, all I can point to is that, for the first time in 11 years, he's willing to share power in a way that won't give him complete control. He may even be ruled against in a disagreement - effectively what appears to be a 49%-49%-2% split power-wise. (I imagine that it's possible that they could have some other arrangement financially.)

Indeed, why would he agree to that? I happen to think that things aren't looking all that rosey for TG. Yes, he has the USGP, the IRL, The Brickyard and IMS. He also has a paying TV contract.

Or does he?

This may be the last USGP in Indianapolis. The France's own the Nascar race, not TG. The IRL is made up of big ex-CART teams with no more yen. And they're all fed up with the split. TG welcomed them even as they chased out his most ardent supporters. They'll not be rushing back.

The IRL has no plans for any sort of chassis update and Honda will call the shots on the engines. Anyone notice what Robert Clarke has been up to lately?

So, yeah, TG still has IMS. But even with the Brickyard and USGP, without a 500 that's not a complete joke, what good are they? Could ABC cite some sort of contract clause when the Indy 500 becomes 33 TG-Owned IPS cars?

OTOH, Kalkhoven and Forsythe don't have as much, but have virtually nothing to lose so long they haven't made a huge financial mistake. For the most part, their camp is loyal (most of them being themselves, of course). KK layed out big money for ChampCar, Cosworth, PI, Long Beach and Toronto. All fairly recently. KK isn't just surviving, he's investing. And he's been making deals with F1 teams and Don Panoz.

TG hired Gene Simmons.

But, unfortunately, TG can still win (in theory - however conspiratorial). Neither Ecclestone or the France's want to see a united IndyCar series. Ecclestone, through Legault, has been screwing with ChampCar in Montreal. The last thing he wants to see - as he struggles cost-containment issues - are cheap, fast, DP01's with three or four Canadian drivers, lapping as quickly as his $400M cars. Kalkhoven's actually mentioned this possibility.

Meanwhile, the France's have been screwing with ChampCar in Arizona. They don't care about cars or speed, but more about upstart race organizers who think races can be held on street circuits that ISC doesn't control. It's not the first time either. Remember Miami?

So, with the unification talks stalled while TG attends to the USGP - and discussing it's future with Ecclestone - Perhaps the Frances will pay a visit as well. Together they can convince TG that he doesn't have to concern himself with this unification silliness. They can give him all the resources necessary for the continuation of his stellar sole-stewardship of the Indianapolis 500 and the IRL - in return for the small favor of allowing their humbles series' the honor of staging races at his most august facility.

[Andrew Longman]

Nizmo, I think you might need a different scoring system. It is all about creating value for the sponsors and in turn the teams. Iff KK can offer CC team sponsors Indy and St Pete, a few more popular ovals and a bit better TV coverage thats a win for CC. If KK can offer IRL teams exposure to places like TO and LB thats good for CC. If he can offer fans at TO and LB Indy 500 winners like HCN and PH up against Tracy thats a win for the fans and TO and LB events.

Unless you can think of a way to deal a fatal blow to IMS, and I can't, all you can do is coopt the IRL by offering a better deal for teams for the rest of the season. In that regard TG has nothing much

[oddlycalm]

It is all about creating value for the sponsors and in turn the teams. Yep, that's the long and short of it. Without that it is game over for everyone, and it finally seems like those involved are figuring that out.
From where I sit the specifics are pretty easy contrary to all the noise they are making. Honda, Cosworth and the part of Ilmor that Penske bought for that matter all have 2.65L turbos. The DP01 is the about ready to come off the drawing board, so why re-invent the wheel. Equal footing as every team has to buy them. Set the rev limiters at 12,000Rpm's and mandate 1000 miles between overhauls to keep the costs where they are now.

Beyond that it's a matter of what events and the schedule. Since there are only one series worth of events worth keeping that should be a relatively easy process as well. It's not like they are mounting an expedition to Mars, they are unifying two series have have a lot more in common than they have differences. If it weren't for TG and his minions being a pack of jacktards all this could be ironed out in 90 days or less and they could get busy pitching potential sponsors.

oc

[cameraman]

I've heard talk of Honda having designed and built a new 3.0l na mill that now has no market and that, above all else, is what Clarke is trying to sell. If it is true then you would expect the Honda bean counters to be a bit miffed about the impending loss of the money spent developing an engine that never gets used. Not that I feel any pity towards them...

[Lux Interior]

Those turbo cossies sounded like music to my ears yesterday. And they are reliable as can be. Their atlantic engines sounded great as well.

Honda's? We don't need no stinking Honda's :D

[L1P1]

Those turbo cossies sounded like music to my ears yesterday. And they are reliable as can be. Their atlantic engines sounded great as well.

Honda's? We don't need no stinking Honda's :D

We need them far less than TG needs them, but I, for one, need another Mfgr. I'll be patient, though.

[JLMannin]

I'm leary of any series where TG is in a position of leadership. I'll pass judgement until I see more concrete details.

BTW, I nominate Dayle Coyne and the arbiter when TG's ego flares up.

[NismoZ]

New scoring system? Perhaps. I have NO idea how to assign $$ values to what each side brings to the table but I'm certain that is being discussed. Examples: How valuable is the DP01 to the success of a merged series? Could Lola present their losing design to The League and Honda to negate that advantage? Compared to the I500 how do Surfers or Mexico or Long Beach stack up? Is the Atlantic series worth even a small part of comprehensive network TV exposure? (driver development is crucial but advertising revenue and TV exposure ay be even more important) Of course it's about the economics of the plan and in my very uninformed opinion a merged series could have it ALL. The best teams, cars, drivers and tracks competing in a diverse series and prospering. All I was trying to do was show that both sides have more to gain than lose. That's why I included "maybe" in the opening statement. Mine has been a decidedly pro merger position because I believe the future of the sport is more important than tracks, engines, chassis or present ownership. The addition of a few well chosen ovals or a 50/50 ownership split is not a deal breaker in my opinion but if Roger Penske becomes the tie-breaker, THAT might be!

[cart7]

I am in no way saying that TG is smarter than KK. I don't know TG personally, but KK's business record speaks for itself. There's no doubting that KK and company have saved ChampCar, but at the same time they still are losing money, which is exactly what the CART predecessors (Pook) were doing. TG has, by all accounts been losing money for 10+ years and is still going on just fine. Like the IRL or not, they appear that they can keep losing money as well.


You need to go back to the 2002 irl season to see where this all started. Early in 2002 the rumour started floating around that mama and the sisters had told Tony the continued drain on IMS income via subsidation of irl teams through the winners circle had to stop.

Suddenly, Tony decides to cave to Toyota and Honda's demands for sealed engines, leases, subsidized teams and all that good stuff that just tanked CART and that the IRL was out to stop. It was clear back then, the ROI of the league hadn't kept up with the increasing costs of number of races plus the cost of equipment. Penske entering the series in 2002 and raising the competition bar to the ceiling didn't help either. Imagine those poor dookey irl team owners merely having to deal with Panther racing prior to 2002, now having to compete against an operation like Penske. :laugh:

Without Toyota and Honda's crossover, the 2003 irl field would've amounted to maybe 12-16 cars, depending on continued participation by fence sitters like Rahal and Ganassi. The 3rd gen earl chassis and engine combo came out making the old stuff obsolete. Guys like Billy Boat & Blair went under, other teams had to cut back on multiple cars because they couldn't raise the money through sponsorship dollars to buy the new equipment. And I'm not talking about the more expensive T or H motors but the crappy Chevy motor.

Fast forward to 2005, Toyota and GM say adios. Honda tells TG we're not going to spend $100 million a year on your series unless we've got a competitor engine builder or there's a merger. We'll sign through 2009 but we'll merely sell you engines after the end of 2006 unless one of those 2 demands are met.

Barnhart can't find another engine badger.

About to be cash poor Tony, due to the thought of suddenly having to fund more cars out of his own pocket again, suddenly see's a special twinkle in KK's eyes he'd never seen before. There's love in the air in France. ahhh, gay pareee does it again.

[racer2c]

You need to go back to the 2002 irl season to see where this all started. Early in 2002 the rumour started floating around that mama and the sisters had told Tony the continued drain on IMS income via subsidation of irl teams through the winners circle had to stop.

Suddenly, Tony decides to cave to Toyota and Honda's demands for sealed engines, leases, subsidized teams and all that good stuff that just tanked CART and that the IRL was out to stop. It was clear back then, the ROI of the league hadn't kept up with the increasing costs of number of races plus the cost of equipment. Penske entering the series in 2002 and raising the competition bar to the ceiling didn't help either. Imagine those poor dookey irl team owners merely having to deal with Panther racing prior to 2002, now having to compete against an operation like Penske. :laugh:

Without Toyota and Honda's crossover, the 2003 irl field would've amounted to maybe 12-16 cars, depending on continued participation by fence sitters like Rahal and Ganassi. The 3rd gen earl chassis and engine combo came out making the old stuff obsolete. Guys like Billy Boat & Blair went under, other teams had to cut back on multiple cars because they couldn't raise the money through sponsorship dollars to buy the new equipment. And I'm not talking about the more expensive T or H motors but the crappy Chevy motor.

Fast forward to 2005, Toyota and GM say adios. Honda tells TG we're not going to spend $100 million a year on your series unless we've got a competitor engine builder or there's a merger. We'll sign through 2009 but we'll merely sell you engines after the end of 2006 unless one of those 2 demands are met.

Barnhart can't find another engine badger.

About to be cash poor Tony, due to the thought of suddenly having to fund more cars out of his own pocket again, suddenly see's a special twinkle in KK's eyes he'd never seen before. There's love in the air in France. ahhh, gay pareee does it again.

wonderfully put. :thumbup:

[NismoZ]

Yup, and a 50/50 agreement seems to be his line in the sand (after a long period of vacilation) His "maintaining control of the series in which the I500 is a part" is his #1 priority. Thus the quandry over how to break a 1-1 tie on big decisions. Why not a situation like Congress where both have to agree or nothing changes? The only thing that will work is a 2-0 vote. Forces compromise and agreement. Both may be a little upset at not getting all they want but in the end the change usually corrects at least part of a problem. If it doesn't, then tweak it and try again!

[L1P1]

Yup, and a 50/50 agreement seems to be his line in the sand (after a long period of vacilation) His "maintaining control of the series in which the I500 is a part" is his #1 priority. Thus the quandry over how to break a 1-1 tie on big decisions. Why not a situation like Congress where both have to agree or nothing changes? The only thing that will work is a 2-0 vote. Forces compromise and agreement. Both may be a little upset at not getting all they want but in the end the change usually corrects at least part of a problem. If it doesn't, then tweak it and try again!

Ironically, 50/50 was all CART wanted in 1978. But, no....

Whatever. TG, KK and, um, let's say the senior senator from Indiana. That would about do it for me at this stage.

[Tifosi24]

Nothing like being bored and not wanting to study for a test. In very short order a friend and I were able to come up with a great and possible schedule. Feel free to flame for stuff you don't like, but the sooner we can push forward the quicker this series can rebuild itself.

2007
March 4--St Pete
March 11--Houston
March 25--Mexico City
April 1--Long Beach
April 15--Motegi
April 29-- Kansas City or some other oval (Gateway, Phoenix, etc.)
May 27--Indy
June 3--Milwaukee
June 17--Portland
June 24--Watkins Glen
July 8--Cleveland
July 15--Toronto
July 29--Chicagoland
August 12--Edmonton
August 19--Denver
September 2--Road America (I can't make it because I get married on the first)
September 16--Surfers Paradise
September 23--Sears Points
September 30--Las Vegas (street)

[devilmaster]

September 2--Road America (I can't make it because I get married on the first)


Can't convince her that RA would be a good honeymoon? Or hows about elope? the Champcar minister could marry ya.... :rofl:

[Lux Interior]

You need to go back to the 2002 irl season to see where this all started. Early in 2002 the rumour started floating around that mama and the sisters had told Tony the continued drain on IMS income via subsidation of irl teams through the winners circle had to stop.

Suddenly, Tony decides to cave to Toyota and Honda's demands for sealed engines, leases, subsidized teams and all that good stuff that just tanked CART and that the IRL was out to stop. It was clear back then, the ROI of the league hadn't kept up with the increasing costs of number of races plus the cost of equipment. Penske entering the series in 2002 and raising the competition bar to the ceiling didn't help either. Imagine those poor dookey irl team owners merely having to deal with Panther racing prior to 2002, now having to compete against an operation like Penske. :laugh:

Without Toyota and Honda's crossover, the 2003 irl field would've amounted to maybe 12-16 cars, depending on continued participation by fence sitters like Rahal and Ganassi. The 3rd gen earl chassis and engine combo came out making the old stuff obsolete. Guys like Billy Boat & Blair went under, other teams had to cut back on multiple cars because they couldn't raise the money through sponsorship dollars to buy the new equipment. And I'm not talking about the more expensive T or H motors but the crappy Chevy motor.

Fast forward to 2005, Toyota and GM say adios. Honda tells TG we're not going to spend $100 million a year on your series unless we've got a competitor engine builder or there's a merger. We'll sign through 2009 but we'll merely sell you engines after the end of 2006 unless one of those 2 demands are met.

Barnhart can't find another engine badger.

About to be cash poor Tony, due to the thought of suddenly having to fund more cars out of his own pocket again, suddenly see's a special twinkle in KK's eyes he'd never seen before. There's love in the air in France. ahhh, gay pareee does it again.


This is the most objective and well-thought out piece of writing I have read on this forum. I wonder who will survive if it becomes a war of attrition? Probably both as long as Indy has the Brickyard 400 $.

[Lux Interior]

Nothing like being bored and not wanting to study for a test. In very short order a friend and I were able to come up with a great and possible schedule. Feel free to flame for stuff you don't like, but the sooner we can push forward the quicker this series can rebuild itself.

2007
March 4--St Pete
March 11--Houston
March 25--Mexico City
April 1--Long Beach
April 15--Motegi
April 29-- Kansas City or some other oval (Gateway, Phoenix, etc.)
May 27--Indy
June 3--Milwaukee
June 17--Portland
June 24--Watkins Glen
July 8--Cleveland
July 15--Toronto
July 29--Chicagoland
August 12--Edmonton
August 19--Denver
September 2--Road America (I can't make it because I get married on the first)
September 16--Surfers Paradise
September 23--Sears Points
September 30--Las Vegas (street)

Good schedule, and, even though I am a big champcar fan, still think you need to have Michigan and California Speedway in there in order to really round out the schedule (provided you can get promotors, sponsors, etc). Adding those two give you 20, which is perfect.

[Insomniac]

Keep in mind that CCWS owns events like LB and Toronto, and probably others indirectly if not directly. Also, the overall series attendance figures heavily favor CCWS, depending on who's numbers you believe.

-Kevin

Well, technically, CCWS doesn't own either. KK and GF own a couple companies that own them. And KK (was GF a part of it too?) owns Cosworth. In that same regard, the IRL doesn't own IMS. However, I think most, if not all of us can agree, if TG didn't own IMS and CCWS was able to race there on Memorial Day weekend, the IRL would never have made it.

[Insomniac]

I wouldn't be too quick paint TG's position as rosey. As evidence, all I can point to is that, for the first time in 11 years, he's willing to share power in a way that won't give him complete control. He may even be ruled against in a disagreement - effectively what appears to be a 49%-49%-2% split power-wise. (I imagine that it's possible that they could have some other arrangement financially.)

Indeed, why would he agree to that? I happen to think that things aren't looking all that rosey for TG. Yes, he has the USGP, the IRL, The Brickyard and IMS. He also has a paying TV contract.

Or does he?

This may be the last USGP in Indianapolis. The France's own the Nascar race, not TG. The IRL is made up of big ex-CART teams with no more yen. And they're all fed up with the split. TG welcomed them even as they chased out his most ardent supporters. They'll not be rushing back.

The IRL has no plans for any sort of chassis update and Honda will call the shots on the engines. Anyone notice what Robert Clarke has been up to lately?

So, yeah, TG still has IMS. But even with the Brickyard and USGP, without a 500 that's not a complete joke, what good are they? Could ABC cite some sort of contract clause when the Indy 500 becomes 33 TG-Owned IPS cars?

OTOH, Kalkhoven and Forsythe don't have as much, but have virtually nothing to lose so long they haven't made a huge financial mistake. For the most part, their camp is loyal (most of them being themselves, of course). KK layed out big money for ChampCar, Cosworth, PI, Long Beach and Toronto. All fairly recently. KK isn't just surviving, he's investing. And he's been making deals with F1 teams and Don Panoz.

TG hired Gene Simmons.

But, unfortunately, TG can still win (in theory - however conspiratorial). Neither Ecclestone or the France's want to see a united IndyCar series. Ecclestone, through Legault, has been screwing with ChampCar in Montreal. The last thing he wants to see - as he struggles cost-containment issues - are cheap, fast, DP01's with three or four Canadian drivers, lapping as quickly as his $400M cars. Kalkhoven's actually mentioned this possibility.

Meanwhile, the France's have been screwing with ChampCar in Arizona. They don't care about cars or speed, but more about upstart race organizers who think races can be held on street circuits that ISC doesn't control. It's not the first time either. Remember Miami?

So, with the unification talks stalled while TG attends to the USGP - and discussing it's future with Ecclestone - Perhaps the Frances will pay a visit as well. Together they can convince TG that he doesn't have to concern himself with this unification silliness. They can give him all the resources necessary for the continuation of his stellar sole-stewardship of the Indianapolis 500 and the IRL - in return for the small favor of allowing their humbles series' the honor of staging races at his most august facility.

I agree that the prospects of the IRL are looking worse and worse (TG is funding more cars in May every year). He currnetly has what CART had 3 years ago. High costs, barely any sponsorship in his series. Without a merger, his next step is the same as ChampCar's, lower the cost of racing. Which isn't any surprise since he has been following CART's "business model" for years now, but is behind the curve.

But, you need to listen to KK. He keeps saying it has to be done right for good reason. This isn't a buyout where one side can dictate everything. If someone has to bend over backwards for this to work while the other takes everything, it's going to fall apart. Both sides must be happy in this, and unfortunately, that means the guy who started this all will be happy in the end. But it's the only way it can happen.

[Insomniac]

You need to go back to the 2002 irl season to see where this all started. Early in 2002 the rumour started floating around that mama and the sisters had told Tony the continued drain on IMS income via subsidation of irl teams through the winners circle had to stop.

Suddenly, Tony decides to cave to Toyota and Honda's demands for sealed engines, leases, subsidized teams and all that good stuff that just tanked CART and that the IRL was out to stop. It was clear back then, the ROI of the league hadn't kept up with the increasing costs of number of races plus the cost of equipment. Penske entering the series in 2002 and raising the competition bar to the ceiling didn't help either. Imagine those poor dookey irl team owners merely having to deal with Panther racing prior to 2002, now having to compete against an operation like Penske. :laugh:

Without Toyota and Honda's crossover, the 2003 irl field would've amounted to maybe 12-16 cars, depending on continued participation by fence sitters like Rahal and Ganassi. The 3rd gen earl chassis and engine combo came out making the old stuff obsolete. Guys like Billy Boat & Blair went under, other teams had to cut back on multiple cars because they couldn't raise the money through sponsorship dollars to buy the new equipment. And I'm not talking about the more expensive T or H motors but the crappy Chevy motor.

Fast forward to 2005, Toyota and GM say adios. Honda tells TG we're not going to spend $100 million a year on your series unless we've got a competitor engine builder or there's a merger. We'll sign through 2009 but we'll merely sell you engines after the end of 2006 unless one of those 2 demands are met.

Barnhart can't find another engine badger.

About to be cash poor Tony, due to the thought of suddenly having to fund more cars out of his own pocket again, suddenly see's a special twinkle in KK's eyes he'd never seen before. There's love in the air in France. ahhh, gay pareee does it again.

The IRL can cut costs the same way ChampCar did and lower the cost to race. They can keep using a spec engine, keep the chassis for 3 more years. And they still have IMS and a TV contract. TG can keep copying ChampCar and they can keep dwindling to nothing.

[Insomniac]

Nothing like being bored and not wanting to study for a test. In very short order a friend and I were able to come up with a great and possible schedule. Feel free to flame for stuff you don't like, but the sooner we can push forward the quicker this series can rebuild itself.

2007
March 4--St Pete
March 11--Houston
March 25--Mexico City
April 1--Long Beach
April 15--Motegi
April 29-- Kansas City or some other oval (Gateway, Phoenix, etc.)
May 27--Indy
June 3--Milwaukee
June 17--Portland
June 24--Watkins Glen
July 8--Cleveland
July 15--Toronto
July 29--Chicagoland
August 12--Edmonton
August 19--Denver
September 2--Road America (I can't make it because I get married on the first)
September 16--Surfers Paradise
September 23--Sears Points
September 30--Las Vegas (street)

Only 5 ovals. :(

[racer2c]

I agree that the prospects of the IRL are looking worse and worse (TG is funding more cars in May every year). He currnetly has what CART had 3 years ago. High costs, barely any sponsorship in his series. Without a merger, his next step is the same as ChampCar's, lower the cost of racing. Which isn't any surprise since he has been following CART's "business model" for years now, but is behind the curve.

But, you need to listen to KK. He keeps saying it has to be done right for good reason. This isn't a buyout where one side can dictate everything. If someone has to bend over backwards for this to work while the other takes everything, it's going to fall apart. Both sides must be happy in this, and unfortunately, that means the guy who started this all will be happy in the end. But it's the only way it can happen.


Where are you going with this? You keep talking about how much the IRL has over CC. Are you predicting capitulation on the part of KK or do you just like talking about how much the IRL has over CC?

[KLang]

March 11--Houston

Houston Rodeo is Feb 27 through Mar 18.

[NismoZ]

And, shouldn't Motegi and Surfers back up for transportation reasons? Add one more low bank and you reach 30% which is fine...nice job.

[nrc]

The IRL can cut costs the same way ChampCar did and lower the cost to race. They can keep using a spec engine, keep the chassis for 3 more years. And they still have IMS and a TV contract. TG can keep copying ChampCar and they can keep dwindling to nothing.

There are several problems there. Tony George is dealing with an engine manufacturer that he doesn't own so his ability to drive those costs down is limited.

The value of the IRL TV contract appears to have declined over the years - fewer hours of coverage and fewer hours of network coverage. The nature of those changes suggests that part of the value of the Indy 500 contract is being used to secure coverage for the rest of the IRL season. The notion that this is a significant source of cash for Tony is faulty in my estimation.

Another significant difference between the two is that Tony George has an implied obligation to produce 33 cars in May. That's a huge expense that could potentially explode if formerly Honda subsidized teams start scaling back or moving their operations. If you assume that the both series are spending the same money to subsidize their field through the season, that amount essentially doubles for TG during the month of May.

Another item to consider is that the IRL has always made much of their Saturday night short track notion that big purses are important, so TG is paying at least twice the purse money that CCWS is paying. That could amount to anywhere from 7 to 10 million dollars a year more in purse money - more than enough to wipe out the value of their TV contract. It would mean eating another helping of crow to cut that back.

Finally, look at the teams that Tony George has to deal with - the same bunch of backstabbing mercenaries who tried to scuttle Champ car in return for their share of Yen. Keeping a full field with that pack of mercenaries on board is going to be expensive. Dumping them in favor of the original kool aide drinking IRL teams may be possible, but would cost the IRL whatever legitimacy it has.

This is not to say that it would be a good idea to sit back and wait for TG to fold as some have suggested. That's the same mistake that TG made when Champ car was in dire straits. But Tony George would have to be under serious duress to finally offer the one thing that he has refused to consider since day one of the split - shared control - so he's in no position to sit and wait, either.

[Tifosi24]

We naturally wanted more ovals, but in terms of ovals these days there aren't many that are suitable for open wheel racing. I don't think Kansas City for example is the best option, but it is a venue that should be included to help bring the two sides together. The Houston event can be moved to its current date with little trouble, we included it earlier in the year so as to make a natural trip down to Mexico City. Motegi and Surfers being split isn't idea, but there are scheduling conflicts to take into account. Having Surfers in the Spring would be great, but it was moved to the fall because of the new F1 date. Motegi can't be moved to a weekend around Surfers because the MotoGP race at Motegi happens around that time in September. Michigan can also be fit into the schedule during the summer months.

[trauma1]

according to FTG the spindy star made the story up

Tony George: IRL-Champ Car Merger 'Not Gonna Happen Anytime Soon'

June 27, 2006 06:19 AM CDT

Tony George Discusses IRL-Champ Car Merger Report


By Chris Widlic
News 8 @ 11

Open-wheel racing may not be as close to unifying as some are reporting. 24-Hour News 8 talked with Speedway President Tony George in an exclusive interview.

The Indy Star created buzz with a Sunday front page article about Champ Car and the IRL getting back together after a 10-year split. George told us the deal is not nearly as close as it sounds.

"We've talked conceptually about how things might be structured, but it's so far from being close to being done, it's not even worth talking about, so where they came up with not only the headlines, but the story is a bit beyond me," said George.

The story went on to say IRL President Brian Barnhart talked about his league and Champ Car possibly being at the same event on some race weekends, including two in April.

"That is a story entirely fabricated by the people who wrote the story," George told us.

He did go on to say he's hoping things work out. It's been a very slow process because there are so many details involved, and both have been so busy recently, they haven't had a chance to continue discussions. But that will change.

"We're gonna get back together here in a few weeks, but certainly, nothing is imminent, and we've got a lot of work ahead of us," said George. "We're still getting to know one another, still trying to understand one another. My sense is its going to take a long time. I enjoy his company and getting to know him, but its just one of those things. It's not gonna happen anytime soon."

[Cam]

The value of the IRL TV contract appears to have declined over the years - fewer hours of coverage and fewer hours of network coverage.

Add to that, the "partner" gets NBC's 1/2 of the 600lb gorrilla next year too. Which series do you yhink is gonna get preference? :shakehead

[racer2c]

...it's not even worth talking about,...

FTG. I am done with anything regarding IRL/CCWS merger. Oh, and did I say FTG? Yes I did.

[KLang]

'The story went on to say IRL President Brian Barnhart talked about his league and Champ Car possibly being at the same event on some race weekends, including two in April.

"That is a story entirely fabricated by the people who wrote the story," George told us.'

Or was the reaction by some so bad he has to backtrack?

Either way :rofl:

And yes, FTG!

[Insomniac]

Where are you going with this? You keep talking about how much the IRL has over CC. Are you predicting capitulation on the part of KK or do you just like talking about how much the IRL has over CC?

I'm not going anywhere whit this. My point from the beginning is I don't see why TG would accept any less than 50% ownership with KK and company when the he and the IRL brings stuff to the table. Some of you want to turn this into something it isn't. I don't like TG and what he did to OWR, but as it is now, as much as I'd like hom to just vanish, he has assets. I also say ChampCar has things the IRL doesn't. Imagine that, both sides have things, a merger might actually be a good idea.

Some of your blind hatred of TG obscures the realities of how any successful merger will work. You can't just snap your fingers and all will be okay.

[trauma1]

he's resposnible for the split, and the monkey wrench stopping a merger, he is what he is a idiot :shakehead

[racer2c]

I'm not going anywhere whit this. My point from the beginning is I don't see why TG would accept any less than 50% ownership with KK and company when the he and the IRL brings stuff to the table. Some of you want to turn this into something it isn't. I don't like TG and what he did to OWR, but as it is now, as much as I'd like hom to just vanish, he has assets. I also say ChampCar has things the IRL doesn't. Imagine that, both sides have things, a merger might actually be a good idea.

Some of your blind hatred of TG obscures the realities of how any successful merger will work. You can't just snap your fingers and all will be okay.

There isn't going to be a "merger".

Blind hatred has it advantages.

New chassis next year, new teams, no engine source problems, I don't need to snap my fingers, KK already did.

[Dr. Corkski]

Some of your blind hatred of TG obscures the realities of how any successful merger will work. You can't just snap your fingers and all will be okay.Hate in this forum? No way! :laugh:

[Insomniac]

There are several problems there. Tony George is dealing with an engine manufacturer that he doesn't own so his ability to drive those costs down is limited.

The value of the IRL TV contract appears to have declined over the years - fewer hours of coverage and fewer hours of network coverage. The nature of those changes suggests that part of the value of the Indy 500 contract is being used to secure coverage for the rest of the IRL season. The notion that this is a significant source of cash for Tony is faulty in my estimation.

Another significant difference between the two is that Tony George has an implied obligation to produce 33 cars in May. That's a huge expense that could potentially explode if formerly Honda subsidized teams start scaling back or moving their operations. If you assume that the both series are spending the same money to subsidize their field through the season, that amount essentially doubles for TG during the month of May.

Another item to consider is that the IRL has always made much of their Saturday night short track notion that big purses are important, so TG is paying at least twice the purse money that CCWS is paying. That could amount to anywhere from 7 to 10 million dollars a year more in purse money - more than enough to wipe out the value of their TV contract. It would mean eating another helping of crow to cut that back.

Finally, look at the teams that Tony George has to deal with - the same bunch of backstabbing mercenaries who tried to scuttle Champ car in return for their share of Yen. Keeping a full field with that pack of mercenaries on board is going to be expensive. Dumping them in favor of the original kool aide drinking IRL teams may be possible, but would cost the IRL whatever legitimacy it has.

This is not to say that it would be a good idea to sit back and wait for TG to fold as some have suggested. That's the same mistake that TG made when Champ car was in dire straits. But Tony George would have to be under serious duress to finally offer the one thing that he has refused to consider since day one of the split - shared control - so he's in no position to sit and wait, either.

I know there are still many differences, but they could work to drive down the cost of Honda leases with Honda in the same way ChampCar did (longer life). And if Honda were to balk, KK/Cosworth have an engine on the shelf they can sell.

I'd also be surprised if they made much money from the TV contract, but it has to beat a time buy. At least ESPN/ABC are eating any loss as opposed to ChampCar.

My main point is that it can be done. We all know TG has no qualms about revising his vision, and the few faithful will still be there.

And I agree with everyone, he is really hurting and things are not looking up. I think KK might also deserve some credit becauswe he also got the guy to actually talk/listen about a merger when so many have failed before him. For whatever reason/combination, TG was finally willing to talk to ChampCar seriously.

[Insomniac]

There isn't going to be a "merger".

Blind hatred has it advantages.

New chassis next year, new teams, no engine source problems, I don't need to snap my fingers, KK already did.

Well, I hope you enjoy what you see now then. I don't see things getting much better. Hopefully they'll lower costs enough to make money.

[Louie]

Only 5 ovals. :(

Thank you for killing Texas. :thumbup: I'd be fine with seeing Chicagoland go away too. AND I live here. But with Dale Coyne and TG being among the owners it's got a lot of backing. Please bring back PIR, or Loudon, or Gateway. Not KC. On the other hand, I don't see the Vegas street race happening.

Also, and I have a well documented Indy fetish, the 500 doesn't need the whole month of May. This year's rain condensed two week schedule worked just fine.

Anyway, my fantasies usually involve buxom brunettes.

[KLang]

Hey boss, maybe you should change the title of this thread to 'It's OFF again'. :laugh:

[racer2c]

Well, I hope you enjoy what you see now then. I don't see things getting much better. Hopefully they'll lower costs enough to make money.

I'm loving the racing this year. Especially now that the frog is being challenged.


Here is what will happen; Rahal and Ganassi, both savvy businessmen in their own right , come over to CC due to it's cost effectiveness and efficient, competent leadership. Any merger will be the result of the need for TG to get 33 cars at his 'BIG SHOW'. It's still the teams that have the power in open wheel racing. As long as KK keeps his series a viable, well run and cost effective series, he'll have the upper hand in the long run.

the 500 isn't TG's saving grace as much as you think it is.

[Tifosi24]

It is entirely possible that TG leaked this story in the same manner that other organizations that will remain nameless tend to do. The man is of dubious intelligence, but downplaying the talks and then, hopefully, having a big shock announcement could conceivably have some moderate media appeal. Despite what might have been mentioned earlier in this thread, or another thread, I don't think Bernie or the Frances are going to talk TG out of a merger. There is no reason for them to. Bernie is not one to worry about his legacy, look at what F1 is like now, and the DP01 may or may not compete with an F1 car but we won't know because there won't be a race in Montreal.

The France family and Nascar doesn't care about open-wheel racing because through their recent scheduling moves (second Phoenix and Fontana dates) they have effectively blocked open-wheel racing from two desirable venues. Champ Car/IRL pales in comparison to Nascar, and they are 15-30 years away from challenging Nascar if everything falls into place and they have a high quality marketing department. Contrary to what many believe, in the long-run it is in ISC/Nascar's best interest to keep open-wheel racing alive, and why you might ask? Nascar's importance and control of tracks all over the United States, along with their at times predatory business practices, could possible put them at risk of anti-trust investigation in the future. Allowing a relatively healthy open-wheel series keeps their market share sufficiently below the 75-80% market share threshold and any hint of investigation.

Reiterating how I started this post, I think this recent development is some gamesmenship by George to keep talks in the news. This merger has to happen and comments over the past months give me the impression that it will. No matter how much we want TG to go away, as Insomnaic has pointed out so many times, he has assets in this game and for that reason he has to be treated as a stockholder. He is kind of like Wal-Mart, they can't be trusted in a small town, but as an city administrator you have to ask yourself if standing on principle is worth letting the town be wiped off the map?

[Louie]

As long as KK keeps his series a viable, well run and cost effective series, he'll have the upper hand in the long run.
And that's the difference of opinion here in a nutshell. :shakehead How "long" is it?

[Tifosi24]

I'm loving the racing this year. Especially now that the frog is being challenged.


I agree, the racing has been really good this year compared to previous seasons, but it doesn't get over the fact that it gets no play outside a very small fanbase. Ganassi and Rahal are not a penacea to the this problem. These two teams, of questionable commitment, are not going to magically bring sponsors to the other teams on the grid. Ganassi has teams in Nascar, so despite his roots in open-wheel you know where he his making his money. The only thing Rahal really brings to the table is Danicamania, if that is still worth anything, and with the amount of time he is putting into his sons career he may bug out to Europe once again.

[trauma1]

i just wonder if the DP01 is one of the reason that montreal is going away, might they be close to F1 in performance and bernie wants no part in that

[Dr. Corkski]

i just wonder if the DP01 is one of the reason that montreal is going away, might they be close to F1 in performance and bernie wants no part in thatExcept that the debacle in Montreal took place last year before the DP01 was even announced. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Easy]

i just wonder if the DP01 is one of the reason that montreal is going away, might they be close to F1 in performance and bernie wants no part in that


They should be more worried about making sure they stay faster than GP2.

[extramundane]

They should be more worried about making sure they stay faster than GP2.

No way our cars will be slower than them Dallara backbreak crapwagons! :gomer:

[cameraman]

Only 5 ovals. :(

Shouldn't that read

Only 5 ovals. :D

[Insomniac]

I'm loving the racing this year. Especially now that the frog is being challenged.


Here is what will happen; Rahal and Ganassi, both savvy businessmen in their own right , come over to CC due to it's cost effectiveness and efficient, competent leadership. Any merger will be the result of the need for TG to get 33 cars at his 'BIG SHOW'. It's still the teams that have the power in open wheel racing. As long as KK keeps his series a viable, well run and cost effective series, he'll have the upper hand in the long run.

the 500 isn't TG's saving grace as much as you think it is.

Right, because it was so much more cost effective to dump the Lola's they already owned and jump to the IRL. Penske left while Honda and Toyota were still in ChampCar. If the teams really had the power, this would've been over a long time ago. But guess what, they got indyitis. We all wish IMS and the Indy 500 means nothing, but it does. If it didn't, the IRL wouldn't be around anymore.

[Insomniac]

i just wonder if the DP01 is one of the reason that montreal is going away, might they be close to F1 in performance and bernie wants no part in that

Doubtful with spec tires and a rev limited engine.

[Insomniac]

Shouldn't that read

Only 5 ovals. :D

I've always loved the balance of ChampCar. With so many different types of tracks so many different things happen. I'm actually fine with that list, I'd love to see Fontana and Michigan back.

[rabbit]

Per an insider in Cleveland this weekend: if it doesn't happen this week, it's not going to happen.

[Ozarkian]

Per an insider in Cleveland this weekend: if it doesn't happen this week, it's not going to happen.

Not going to happen, period, or not in time to affect '07?

[Racing Truth]

Per an insider in Cleveland this weekend: if it doesn't happen this week, it's not going to happen.

Second Ozark's question.

[oddlycalm]

Per an insider in Cleveland this weekend: if it doesn't happen this week, it's not going to happen. With the USGP going on and Bernie in town the negotiate it's future most would bet against it happening this week.

oc

[rabbit]

That's all he said. We got interrupted before he could go into more detail and didn't get to finish the conversation.

[Cam]

With the USGP going on and Bernie in town the negotiate it's future most would bet against it happening this week.

oc

Ummm..... Is Anton gonna be in Indy or Kansas tho? :confused:

[pchall]

This is TFF. It is beginning to sound as if the shills at the SpindyStar are desperate for a "merger" as well. Meanwhile the sycophants and opportunists that have always surrounded FTG are busy keeping their jobs in the only way they know how. :rolleyes:

With each week that passes the CCWS hand only become stronger.

I love turbos in the morning. It sounds like victory.

[racer2c]

And that's the difference of opinion here in a nutshell. :shakehead How "long" is it?

Well duh, until KK can't make it work anymore and it dies a quick death. I think they can drag it out five years in its current state, ten if things get a little better. But in the end, the only way there will be a "merger" is if one of the series dies. TODAY, I think that the IRL is more likely to go than CC. but when both are on life support, what's it matter. TG can't see the forest through the trees.

[Insomniac]

Not going to happen, period, or not in time to affect '07?

Robin Miller spoke to KK during Cleveland. Obviously it was TV so it was going to be characterized as optimistically as possible, but he kept to the same line. Might happen for 07, or 08 or whenever, has to be done right. They are making progress.

[Racing Truth]

This is TFF. It is beginning to sound as if the shills at the SpindyStar are desperate for a "merger" as well. Meanwhile the sycophants and opportunists that have always surrounded FTG are busy keeping their jobs in the only way they know how. :rolleyes:

With each week that passes the CCWS hand only become stronger.

I love turbos in the morning. It sounds like victory.

"The road to oblivion is paved with the arrogance of fools."

[NismoZ]

Off again. TG says the Star piece was a total fabrication. Doesn't know where or how they cooked up the story. Says they'll meet again "in a few weeks." I guess nowhere near as far along as the recent story would have most (who read it) believe. **Sigh**

[Wheel-Nut]

'The story went on to say IRL President Brian Barnhart talked about his league and Champ Car possibly being at the same event on some race weekends, including two in April.

"That is a story entirely fabricated by the people who wrote the story," George told us.'

Or was the reaction by some so bad he has to backtrack?

Either way :rofl:

And yes, FTG!

Someone explained to him what 50 / 50 means!

[Andrew Longman]

USA Today Monday cited both IRL and CC (KK) as saying the IndyStar headline was a bit optimistic but that the article was generally correct. Sounds like TG is being misquoted, unclear, or reversing himself. Anything that quotes him is unlikely to a be a "total fabrication"

[NismoZ]

On again! :rofl:

[racer2c]

USA Today Monday cited both IRL and CC (KK) as saying the IndyStar headline was a bit optimistic but that the article was generally correct. Sounds like TG is being misquoted, unclear, or reversing himself. Anything that quotes him is unlikely to a be a "total fabrication"

And I think that is why TG wants to keep this out of the press. He likes to backpedal and he doesn't want his words quoted and coming back to bite him. Personally, I think he just forgets what he says on any given day.

[Racing Truth]

Look, everyone calm down! This thing will have plenty of ups and downs. The nature of the beast.

[L1P1]

USA Today Monday cited both IRL and CC (KK) as saying the IndyStar headline was a bit optimistic but that the article was generally correct. Sounds like TG is being misquoted, unclear, or reversing himself. Anything that quotes him is unlikely to a be a "total fabrication"

I think what also confuses the issue is that the Star article also seems to have used Barnhardt, who may have some ideas of his own he's pushing.

When KK, on camera, says he's "very optimistic", instead of being cautious, it's news, IMHO.

That said, the TG fickle-factor still looms large....

[datachicane]

That said, the TG fickle-factor still looms large....


Yep. I expect him to Leo Mehl KK when it comes time to actually pull the trigger on this thing.

Criminy, this is the third time we've been through this- why does anyone expect him to behave any differently? I hope it happens as much as anyone, but as far as expecting TG to show sound business judgement, negotiate in good faith, or put the good of the sport ahead of whatever personal demons haunt him- I'll believe it when I see it.